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The New York Effect

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  • KodakII
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 388

    The New York Effect

    While it is no secret that New York is the most commercial of the three major fashion weeks, why does it seem that when certain designers migrated to the city they sort of lost their edge(if that is even the correct word). The first duo that immediately comes to mind is Preen.

    While all designers go through some sort of evolution, it just feels that some have compromised their visions just to get some get further.This seems like the best place for this and I have had this on my mind for a little while. Feel from to agree or disagree.
  • Faust
    kitsch killer
    • Sep 2006
    • 37852

    #2
    New York is a swamp. Between the pressure to sell and the instant rock-star syndrome, it's very hard to produce anything edgy here. Sometimes I see some student work from Parsons and it's fucking mindblowing. Where does it go once they graduate? Gets lost in the dungeons of Ralph Lauren.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

    Comment

    • KodakII
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 388

      #3
      I hear you on that, but then I have to ask, what's the point of having the CFDA and the awards? Aren't they suppose to assist and guide young talent, or am I mistaken. From an outsider looking in, it just looks very messy and political.

      Comment

      • Faust
        kitsch killer
        • Sep 2006
        • 37852

        #4
        I don't know, what was the point of having the Communist party and give it awards to the narrow circle of functionaries every year? It's a show. Everyone knows New York fashion is dead creatively, but there is so much money here, that it's commercially viable. And NYC is amazing at PR. It will just PR the shit out of itself and convince themselves and everyone else that they are cool. That's how marketing works - if you say it long enough and with conviction, it becomes reality - and we are wonderful at it.
        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

        Comment

        • gaitortrout
          Member
          • Sep 2010
          • 69

          #5
          Not that it's the end of the story: NYC is fucking expensive. You got to hustle and you got to play the game to get by. Not a good mix for fresh ideas, and for all it's got going for it it's not the first place that comes to mind for cutting edge anything these days.
          pm me.

          Comment

          • Faust
            kitsch killer
            • Sep 2006
            • 37852

            #6
            Well, everywhere is expensive and probably everywhere you have to play the game to get by. It's more of what kind of a mentality the powers that be have.
            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

            Comment

            • gaitortrout
              Member
              • Sep 2010
              • 69

              #7
              I'm curious, you've mentioned what you think hampers creativity - the awards, the shows, monolithic RL - are there signs of change in NYC?

              One thing that Paris, Milan, and Tokyo have in common is a manufacturing industry with a highly skilled, experienced labour market that acts as the foundation upon which the industry was built. Whereas New York's fashion industry relies on it's formidable promotional and marketing industry because it lacks a strong manufacturing base.

              I get the feeling that, in a way, this is reflected in the superficial nature of the New York and the (small 'a' meaning the diffusion of NYC influence throughout the hemisphere) american market.
              pm me.

              Comment

              • sam_tem
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2007
                • 650

                #8
                my opinion doesn't count much since i live in a cultural wasteland, but i always get the feeling that america has this mentality that you have to fit in as much as possible in order to be successful here. while not necessarily applying to the designers, that by nature means that in order to be profitable in america you're going to end up selling boring/average crap or pay the price. there's also a much larger income gap in america so i'd imagine it's much harder to skate by in NYC with a smaller label than it is in Paris, Milan, Barcelona, etc just due to the differences in cost of living (ie. this would also apply to finding financing as well).

                you mention manufacturing bases but i hardly know of anything that's actually manufactured in notable european cities these days, but i suppose europe is closer to the low-wage markets and has better contacts established.

                Comment

                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37852

                  #9
                  Gaitor, it's not true that NYC doesn't have the manufacturing base. The garment district was once very, very strong and now the jobs are slowly returning (and once China deregulates its currency, which is inevitable, more jobs will come back). And if you were to ask any of the Antwerp Six, why they were so explosively creative, they would tell that it is exactly BECAUSE they did not have a strong fashion tradition. They had creative carte blanche. So, it's actually the reverse. Look at Paris today - how many designers that show there are actually French?

                  I don't know if there are signs of change. I don't see them. I think that for a true change, one needs a unified front. Notice how we talk about the Belgians, or the Japanese. There has to be more than one person willing to change the status quo. This is very hard to do in the US, where the competition mentality is sacred. What people don't understand is that such mentality is debilitating. How are you supposed to function when you are taught to compete from the early age, so everyone around you becomes your enemy?

                  I also have to disagree with you, sam_tem. We live in a culture that very much promotes individuality and rebellion, now that the business figured out that these are alluring qualities on which it can cash in. Sure, there is still pressure to fit in in many areas, but we are no longer in 1950s. The game has changed.
                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • sam_tem
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 650

                    #10
                    that's true Faust. i suppose when speaking of fitting in i was thinking of those that usually have the disposable income to throw down for designer wear are the type of people that want something unique, but within well established boundaries.

                    Comment

                    • Fade to Black
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 5340

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Faust View Post
                      Sometimes I see some student work from Parsons and it's fucking mindblowing. Where does it go once they graduate? Gets lost in the dungeons of Ralph Lauren.
                      that's fucking depressing. without knowing the politics of the inside, NY Fashion Week and its overall atmosphere just strikes me as really fucking safe and boring.
                      www.matthewhk.net

                      let me show you a few thangs

                      Comment

                      • zamb
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2006
                        • 5834

                        #12
                        A big part of the problem with new york is the specific idea that there is such a thing as "American Fashion"............Ralph lauren and Tommy Hilfiger brands are the perfect example of that..............its called "Good Clean American Sportswear".
                        Anything too far outside of that look is seen as a joke.......
                        there is also the issue of designers having too many advisers telling them what they should be designing. i know of instances where certain designers are told by powerful industry people, what their collections should look like.
                        when I had just moved to New York, there was a healthy dose of avante garde designers doing really interesting work.........they have either all gone out of business of forced to the fringes of NY fashion.
                        “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                        .................................................. .......................


                        Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                        Comment

                        • gaitortrout
                          Member
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 69

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Faust View Post
                          Gaitor, it's not true that NYC doesn't have the manufacturing base. The garment district was once very, very strong and now the jobs are slowly returning (and once China deregulates its currency, which is inevitable, more jobs will come back). And if you were to ask any of the Antwerp Six, why they were so explosively creative, they would tell that it is exactly BECAUSE they did not have a strong fashion tradition. They had creative carte blanche. So, it's actually the reverse. Look at Paris today - how many designers that show there are actually French?
                          I don't think that the designers not being French is relevant in this discussion. How many designers from New York are not from New York? Regarding the Antwerp Six, they went to (and stayed in) Paris for a reason, no? Their creativity might have died on the cutting room floor so to speak, were it not for the infrastructure they found in Paris to convert that creativity into a business.

                          And from a personal perspective, once most garments sold in Canada were made in Quebec. There's an industry here that has also been gutted and because it has been unable or unwilling to adapt it has almost disappeared. The industry is also attempting a comeback here, which I see as having the effect of encouraging young designers to stay. Given the poor state of the industry and how cheap it is to live in Quebec, most manufacturers are now offering their services at affordable rates.

                          Originally posted by Faust View Post
                          I don't know if there are signs of change. I don't see them. I think that for a true change, one needs a unified front. Notice how we talk about the Belgians, or the Japanese. There has to be more than one person willing to change the status quo. This is very hard to do in the US, where the competition mentality is sacred. What people don't understand is that such mentality is debilitating. How are you supposed to function when you are taught to compete from the early age, so everyone around you becomes your enemy?
                          I definitely understand the detrimental effect of competition in terms of it's debilitating effects on creativity and cooperation - when everyone's too busy fighting for a piece of the pie there's no one's working to make the pie bigger. I mentioned the manufacturing industry because I think it's very important for young designers, such as graduates from Parson's, to have infrastructure in place to support them and help them develop but in New York there's mainly publicity/advertising/marketing which helps but the marketing industry places more importance on the presentation than the product.

                          Whenever I enter a discussion regarding the faults and pitfalls of being an 'American' (or Canadian - same (non)market) I always think of Cloak, a great line that didn't have the support of the American market and couldn't compete in the European market only because it was based in New York. It's very demoralizing because one thinks that if Cloak was undone by it's location (from what I understand of the situation) how could anyone do something innovative and survive?

                          As you mention it requires a collective movement, but in a city that moves as fast as New York will people stop fighting each other long enough to help change? Or another scenario I find more reflective of the current American situation, will New York have to concede relevance to the likes of Sao Paolo and Beunos Aires (or Montréal, hehe) before it's fashion industry decides to move away from its superficial fixation?
                          pm me.

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            #14
                            Originally posted by gaitortrout View Post
                            I don't think that the designers not being French is relevant in this discussion. How many designers from New York are not from New York? Regarding the Antwerp Six, they went to (and stayed in) Paris for a reason, no? Their creativity might have died on the cutting room floor so to speak, were it not for the infrastructure they found in Paris to convert that creativity into a business.
                            You misunderstood. It had nothing to do with them not being French - it had everything to do with them not being in Paris and not having the weight of tradition bogging them down. And you are wrong about the Antwerp Six - they first went to London (they had no money to show in Paris), and they manufactured primarily in Belgium, but they had to teach the factories to do the things the way the wanted. Showing in Paris is not going to Paris. Only Margiela went to Paris.

                            And NYC is not going to concede anything for the exact reasons you've stated - the marketing machine is well-oiled. Who wants to go to Sao-Paolo?
                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • gaitortrout
                              Member
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 69

                              #15
                              Thanks for enlightening me on the Antwerp Six. I didn't realize that they all stayed in Belgium. (I used to be able to remember all six but I had to look at Wikipedia - and Margiela is technically part of the Antwerp Seven ;) )

                              New York is an international city, no doubt, but I wouldn't discount Sao-Paolo, and Brazil in particular. The Western Hemisphere isn't going to be Americentric forever. Anyways, I was trying to make the point that New York will either be happy with it's current state or be forced to change when it loses relevance.

                              EDIT: Also, "Who want to go to Sao-Paolo?" - ask again in two months!
                              pm me.

                              Comment

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