The cinema thread

[Servo2000]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="designersheep"]Yes, exactly. Are you in an art school? Sounds really great that you get to discuss these matters with professors.
[/quote]
<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>High school, I'm afraid. Hopefully by the time I make it to college I'll be able to speak more clearly.</DIV>

[Faust]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Servo2000"][quote user="designersheep"]Yes, exactly. Are you in an art school? Sounds really great that you get to discuss these matters with professors.
[/quote]
<div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>High school, I'm afraid. Hopefully by the time I make it to college I'll be able to speak more clearly.</div>

[/quote]</p>

Wow, had me fooled.</p>

[designersheep]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread


Faust I didn't mean to take anything away from Babel, and I don't wanna judge a film I have not watched yet, but I will say this. The amount of attention that well made Hollywood films are getting compared to how little films of directors such as Tarkovsky, Ozu, and Bresson are getting despite all their critical acclaim, is truly staggering. It would be easiest to draw parallels to the fashion houses such as Gucci and Versace being top Hollywood directors, and Carpe Diem lines being Tarkovskies. Only difference would be that the film fans have the freedom to watch whatever they want by paying the same amount of money (rental or dvd purchase). As a viewer, when you know that there plenty of films to be watched by directors who think outside the box and takes the whole thing to another level, there's really no need to even look at all the craps being produced.

Servo wow I thought you were much older no offense :) I wish I am as articulate as you are now haha.

[Faust]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



[quote user="designersheep"]
Faust I didn't mean to take anything away from Babel, and I don't wanna judge a film I have not watched yet, but I will say this. The amount of attention that well made Hollywood films are getting compared to how little films of directors such as Tarkovsky, Ozu, and Bresson are getting despite all their critical acclaim, is truly staggering. It would be easiest to draw parallels to the fashion houses such as Gucci and Versace being top Hollywood directors, and Carpe Diem lines being Tarkovskies. Only difference would be that the film fans have the freedom to watch whatever they want by paying the same amount of money (rental or dvd purchase). As a viewer, when you know that there plenty of films to be watched by directors who think outside the box and takes the whole thing to another level, there's really no need to even look at all the craps being produced.

[/quote]</p>

Actually, it's not about how much you pay, it's about how you gain access - so the analogy to fashion holds, if all you see in GQ is Gucci and Hugo Boss and not CDiem than you have a hard time finding the good stuff. What will propel you to find the good stuff is your dissatisfaction with what you see in GQ.</p>

[Fuuma]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="destroyed"]


RE: the title of this thread </P>


Minnesota declaration: truth and fact in documentary cinema "LESSONS OF DARKNESS" </P>


1. By dint of declaration the so-called Cinema Verité is devoid of verité. It reaches a merely superficial truth, the truth of accountants. </P>


2. One well-known representative of Cinema Verité declared publicly that truth can be easily found by taking a camera and trying to be honest. He resembles the night watchman at the Supreme Court who resents the amount of written law and legal procedures. "For me," he says, "there should be only one single law: the bad guys should go to jail." Unfortunately, he is part right, for most of the many, much of the time. </P>


3. Cinema Verité confounds fact and truth, and thus plows only stones. And yet, facts sometimes have a strange and bizarre power that makes their inherent truth seem unbelievable. </P>



4. Fact creates norms, and truth illumination. </P>



5. There are deeper strata of truth in cinema, and there is such a thing as poetic, ecstatic truth. It is mysterious and elusive, and can be reached only through fabrication and imagination and stylization. </P>


6. Filmmakers of Cinema Verité resemble tourists who take pictures amid ancient ruins of facts. </P>


7. Tourism is sin, and travel on foot virtue.

8. Each year at springtime scores of people on snowmobiles crash through the melting ice on the lakes of Minnesota and drown. Pressure is mounting on the new governor to pass a protective law. He, the former wrestler and bodyguard, has the only sage answer to this: "You can´t legislate stupidity." </P>


9. The gauntlet is hereby thrown down. </P>


10. The moon is dull. Mother Nature doesn´t call, doesn´t speak to you, although a glacier eventually farts. And don´t you listen to the Song of Life. </P>


11. We ought to be grateful that the Universe out there knows no smile. </P>


12. Life in the oceans must be sheer hell. A vast, merciless hell of permanent and immediate danger. So much of a hell that during evolution some species - including man - crawled, fled onto some small continents of solid land, where the Lessons of Darkness continue. </P>


Walker Art Center, Minneapolis, Minnesota April 30, 1999 Werner Herzog</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


discuss...</P>


[/quote]</P>


<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">This is an interesting statement in the sense that it tells you a lot about its originator but not that much about what is being discussed (If I had a general rule to make I?d say those are always the most enlightening texts but that?s a very personal bias you don?t have to subscribe to). Werner Herzog?s cinema is one of transcendence, or at least of the yearning for transcendence, that scoffs at ?consensual truths? and rejects a humanocentrist worldview. For Herzog, Man is but an insignificant speck dwarfed by the incommensurability of an uncaring, nonsensical universe. Growing up eating wallpaper in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Germany</st1:place></st1:country-region>, during the aftermath of the Second World War, tends to do that to your mind but I digress. To make things short I?d say Herzog?s approach is instinctive, wide-reaching, spiritual and anti-documentarian/?facts are facts? to the extreme (even when making documentaries!!!). Truth is not to be found in the mundane but the sublime (yeah yeah I know I can never get my point across without using the shortcuts afforded by philosophical meta-language, sorry </FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings"><SPAN style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings">J</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>


<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">The title of this thread is a direct quoting of something Godard had the main protagonist say in ?Le petit soldat?, an even cursory knowledge of Godard should tell you his characters often act as conduits for what he or other creators, via quoting, have to say about art, life, the place of the artist, creation, cinema, etc. so let?s assume, for the sake of (over)simplification that it originated from the man himself.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>


<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Godards?s way of filming and having his subjects behave is definitely naturalistic at times, you often have scenes shot in exteriors (VS in a studio), with hand-held cameras, natural light and improvised dialogue. This is especially apparent when he presents the, somewhat pointless on a first degree analysis, banter that goes on between two lovers, where its easy to see fragments of your own life on screen, making you think ?We?re in a cinema, getting diverted watching people who are, in a way, playing us, without being us or anyone else, and we?re going to talk about us, watching us, playing us then talking about us, afterwards-an abyss within an abyss within an abyss, ad infinitum?. Godard, through realism, because he mixes it with theatricality, inter-titles, cinematic experimentation, famous and not so famous quotes and literary references of all kind, reminds you at all time that you?re watching a movie and what?s more a Godard movie. His work offers viewers the possibility of discussing what the frame is, what is inside/outside the frame, how they can blur and what it could mean as an artist, a viewer, a consumer, a person, etc.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>


<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Yes, we could say that he?s incorporated parts of cinema vérité and his approach is definitely linked to philosophical materialism, an immanent view of man and his world, tinted by the often rocky relationship of the may 68ters with Marxism, Anarchism, Maoism, Situationism and various leftist ?isms? conductive to fancy-pansy discussions that really impress the art chicks at dinners. This doesn?t mean he isn?t, like Herzog, aiming at unearthing a truth that goes beyond mere facts, just that, as I just discussed, his cinema is based on different philosophical principles and life-experiences. If there?s an enemy those two directors have in common, it is definitely the accountants of cinema, purveyors of ready to wear truths and derivative dreck.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>


<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><FONT face="Times New Roman">On an even more personal level the thread?s title speaks to me because it evokes the naïve and absolutely charming view of Truffaut that you can learn everything there is to know about life using cinema, even going as far as asking if Cinema could be more important than life. There is something magical about this, a willingness to place yourself at a child?s level and see with the same eyes. <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[Fuuma]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Faust"][quote user="Servo2000"][quote user="designersheep"]Yes, exactly. Are you in an art school? Sounds really great that you get to discuss these matters with professors.
[/quote]
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>High school, I'm afraid. Hopefully by the time I make it to college I'll be able to speak more clearly.</DIV>


[/quote]</P>


Wow, had me fooled.</P>


[/quote]</P>


Yeah, Servo si a great contributor here and on superfuture.</P>

[destroyed]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



to tie things together, this all fits in with herzog's minnesota declaration that i posted a few pages back now. abstraction works on the same level as poetry-----it touches a subterranean truth, rather than the hollow exterior "facts" of which realists are so fond.</p>

PS i have "the conversation" waiting for me at home-----wooot!</p>

</p>

PPS yay for godard's weekend!
</p>

[Seventh]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

Thanks Destroyed for posting the Herzog declaration. I understood him to be critiquing a certain pretentiousness that has come to surround ?Cinema-Verite?, rather than going after the larger topic of realism.

The subsequent discussions have been really interesting as well, but it seems like everyone is intent on analyzing the cinematic structure of the films, and much less focused on issues of content or acting. If you look at the latter topics Ozu (who is fascinated with the relationship between generations and the effects of modernism) and Antonioni (who is interested in counterculture and fashionable subcultures) have very little in common.

I have a hard time with a lot of film theory (and art theory) that tries to limit the discussion of work to ideas about structure of things, whether it be abstract vs realist, minimalism vs romanticism, or medium specific (video vs film). It maintains a dialogue concerning culture that is fixated with appearances rather than content.

So having said that, I feel like I have to speak up though in defense of realism (whatever that exactly is). What first came to mind are the photos of the Bechers and Thomas Struth. Simple deadpan images of streets, portraits and industrial architecture. They are images that are completely concerned with documenting the details, the surfaces of things. What I love about them is their unpretentiousness, unlike for example, the films of Breckage, they are not trying to speak some abstract universal truth, rather they are concerned with just remembering all the details of a specific moment in time. But it is within the details, the realism of the images, that so much can be found, the pictures leave doors open for the viewer to make sense of. With Breckage I just feel pounded over the head?

For a similar reason, partly why I like Cassavetes so much is the openness of his films. He really allows actors to develop and lead the narrative in his films. The films are so realistic, documenting unexpected relationships, inadvertent words and actions that seem to only be loosely controlled by the director.

Anyway, I am running out of steam, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents about everything that has been said. Really interesting discussion all round. Like everyone else, I am surprised that you were in high school, Servo, your a great contributor.




</p>

[designersheep]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

^
Yes, yes I didn't mean to simplify everything that is in Ozu wity my statements. It was just an example from many characteristics of those directors, and just my amateur take on elliptical narratives. Anyway, my post wasn't in response to any other post over here; I just felt like throwing it up there. Also, when I try to write down what I think, I can't help but feel the reductionism kicking in; hence my time away from film forums :)

I think Abbas Kiarostami is a director who actually achieves what most of the directors associated with Cinéma vérité wanted to achieve but couldn't. There is no universal ultimate truth, and all artists seek to capture their own versions of truth; so really, I guess it all comes down to how our philosophies, as audiences, matches with the directors. Everything is subjective, and I feel that if a director is sincere and dedicated enough to constantly seek their own truth with films, they deserve my respect. To me, Kiarostami is one of the most humble and sincere directors working today, and I often sense childlike purity, innocence, and sincerity watching his films.

Arrragrjhreah, I'm getting to carried away here. I'd like to discuss more, but I really gotta do some work now hehe :)

[Seventh]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



Hey designersheep,</p>

Thanks for responding and I am sorry if what I wrote came off as argumentative. I just wanted to continue the dialogue and throw out a different viewpoint--not get into a theoretical fist-fight. I thought your take on elliptical narratives was fascinating, something I hadn't really thought about. I also really like how in your last post you mention sincerity, it is an underrated quality and something that I deeply respect in all artforms. </p>

Please do continue posting about films when you feel urge! [:)]
</p>

[destroyed]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



seventh</p>

you are right, the minnesota declaration is about verite, for sure, i was just broadening the application a bit. herzog's thoughts on the matter comes right out of nietzsche's birth of tragedy------herzog commits to dionyssian rather than apollonian ways of knowing; the ecstatic over reason.</p>

[nairb49]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

er, to dumb it down a bit, I watched Stranger than Fiction the other night. Pleasantly surprised. Will Farrell isn't usually my cup of tea, nor anything Dustin Hoffman in the past few years, but this was a nice one. Nice, easy, watch.

[destroyed]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



ooooh. the conversation was good. a must see for anyone in san francisco. paranoiac atmosphere is delicious. wheeeee!
</p>

[mass]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

inarticulate, otherwise i would try and contribute to the above discussion(s).



not much time for movies when i'm working 80 hour weeks but i watched cyborg again recently. van damme in his prime... it was one of my favorites when i was younger and i always preferred it over both bloodsport and kickboxer. i still enjoy it. great layering in the costumes as well!

[destroyed]

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread



i feel like i must have seen that, but i think i may have missed it somehow. i noticed on imdb that the characters are named after guitars and amps!</p>

marshall strat</p>

gibson rickenbacker</p>

fender tremolo</p>

</p>

WTF?!!!</p>

</p>

i must rent this</p>