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  • nqth
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2006
    • 350

    The fit



    I am not sure if this is a proper place for the post, sorry if I should post in other sub forum:-).



    Anyway I was spending three hours last night in searching for a "perfect oversized fit". I looked at several past collections from Yohji, Comme, Raf, Dries and even Lang....The reason isa pea coat from Shirt in S, but very very big:-) as it is from8 years ago:-) I think I should get it just bc of the time it was designed. But what if I can't wear it?



    So, the shoulder fits OK, the length if I remember right falls downto above myknees. The last button is slightly bellow my waist. But the coat can hold two or three me. It is cut straight from under the armholes. Two pockets in diagonalare too closed to the center line, and there is a horizontal "seam" accrosedthe frontend of the coat. (It might be a reference to the french seam H+ collection from thesame year.)



    It looks quite like a cape, or sth Raf made for Jil Sander this year - the diff. is that the coat's shoulder doesn't fall off your shoulders. I might wear it with skinnier jeans. But I think the probl. might be the length if the coat rather than the width. I would prefer the last button to be above my waist and the length to be half my thigh. (But I can't be taller - I am 170 cm)



    What do you think? What is a perfect oversized fit?



    And in general, should oversize be cool, since now men are more concious about how they look and they rather look thinnier than "fuller".

  • Faust
    kitsch killer
    • Sep 2006
    • 37852

    #2
    Re: The fit



    Nqth, I guess the best question to ask is, "How do you feel it looks
    on you?" If you think it's totally wrong, then holding on to it
    just because it's from a certain era is probably not reason enough to
    own something. I've had pieces that I desperately wanted to hold
    on to because they are collector's items or otherwise covetable, but
    every time I realized that it's completely pointless (unless you are
    waiting for them to appreciate in value - things like Dior Homme
    bloodwound shirt, or the currently discussed HL handcuff
    bracelets). If it's a matter of public opinion, than you are safe
    - Raf has instituted the roomy fit. Personally, I think it's hard to
    pull off that kind of room, but than again you are not that short. So,
    I guess my rambling means - if you look in the mirror and think it
    looks good, go for it - if not, your money is better spent elsewhere.



    Another
    thing - all these fits, superskinny, superroomy, super low waist, super
    high waist, Thom Browne ankles, etc. are just fads, and will most
    probably never become classic. Let's face it, we have certain
    anatomy, and a truly classic piece will correspond to it. Rei's
    hunchback dresses may have been iconoclastic, and revolutionary in
    their own way, but who wears them? You can't take the utilitarian
    aspect out of something you wear, it's not something you hang on your
    wall.



    As
    far as cool - cool is something that makes you stand out without
    looking like you are trying too hard. So, in NYC, for example, if
    I saw someone wearing a roomy fit that looked good on them, I'd say
    he/she is cool, because he/she'd be floating on top of the sea of
    skinny jeans.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

    Comment

    • bakla
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2006
      • 902

      #3
      Re: The fit



      This is a tricky subject. I myself am going for a less fitted, volumized aesthetic, and I tried the Jil Sander coats and jackets this season with that in mind. After years of fitted jackets, it's hard to find the right pieces. One thing I noticed with the Raf Simons' Jil Sander line is that while the look is great on the runway on his models, it may not translate yet to real life. The coats I tried on just looked badly fitted on me, precisely because of the dropped shoulder. I also blame the fact that I still haven't adjusted completely to the new silhouette even if I recognize that it is the way to go (volume has been gaining steam for years in fashion, and this past Summer I'd already stopped wearing a lot of my more fitted tshirts in favor of looser fits). I've actually bought an APC coat that is a compromise - fitted at the shoulder, it flares out in an A line, but not too much. When worn with skinny jeans, the coat's volume is emphasized, but not too overwhelmingly so.



      Now, this coat you have (do you own it?) might work because of your height, but that's already iffy when you think of volume on your frame (converting your measurements, you're 5'5", and most designer clothes are proportioned for taller people). The fact that the shoulders aren't too dropped (by your estimation) is already a plus.




      However, I'm not really certain about using fairly recent collections as a measure for updating to more volume in the proportions. Collections from 8 years ago might be too recent because of the cut - they might just look oddly transitional. I found that a vintage macintosh coat from the 60s that I had wanted to get rid of years ago is now the perfect proportion, and I'm glad I kept it. The shoulders are a raglan cut so they fit without any issue of a dropped shoulder seam, but the fuller body is perfectly in line with Raf's Jil Sander aesthetic, but more importantly, fitted to my body in a way that works more than the actual Jil Sander line does. A lot of the coats in Raf's own mainline are actually just above the knee, and he emphasised the wearer's body underneath by skinny trousers, so your idea of wearing this coat with skinny jeans is spot on. I suppose the best thing to do is try it out and see how it works. Take a picture and post here if you'd care for feedback.

      Comment

      • nqth
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 350

        #4
        Re: The fit



        Thanks guys:-)



        I haven't bought it yet. I've beenlooking forslightly oversized, shorterdouble coat for fall that I could wear with fitted jeans for a while I was more than pleased than sth in S appeared:-)And I think I look quite ok in it:-) The probl. is that if I know sth isnotperfectI will feel bad:-)) (I might have to change my character.)



        Just the fitted shoulder really made me consider buying. But Ialways have prob. with length, as you have noticed.The clothes are really made for taller people. It must have sth to do with proper proportion.A wilder stuff looks good if the vertical proportion is good. And sth,that is cut for 176-178cm will not look good on 170 cm ppl. The plus might be theboxy cut, so that the waist is not marked. But the last button reveals it all, tho. All the stuffs I have are a bit too long, (2-3 cm, but it can make or break the look). And all the stuffs I saw (from the shows pics) have higher button, even if they are from few years ago.



        I also hate it when thearmholes are too low. You can't raise your hand to catch a holder in public transport:-P



        The coat is quite simple, Faust, without lining (which I don't mind). It is not the statement makerone, just the extrapop up seam in front makesit look quite silly. Actually I was looking at the old collections bc I was looking for reasons I should buy. I know that Comme used to make oversized stuffs back then. Butthepoint is to get a good oversize fit:-P



        Bakla, the Mac is perfect one, esp. now that the trenches are everywhere!



        Faust, as cool - uncool I mean how fashion is changing right now. I think someone pointed out in tFS in disscusion about recent JS collection, but I didn't see it as clearly as now. That the oversize JS silhouette might look nice on skinny young men (on the runway, tho, as bakla pointed out), but on 40+ guys - who are the main JS clients - might look really bad. So who needs the oversize anyway?

        Comment

        • bakla
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2006
          • 902

          #5
          Re: The fit

          No one needs the oversized look, but what Raf is doing is making a statement about the return to volume after years of superfitted silhouettes. That will become evident when it all trickles down to mainstream fashion in the next few years.

          For "fashionistas," if you want to be ahead of the trend (And I'm talking trend in clothing, not necessarily trendy styles, which conneotes a bit more easy obsolesence), the trick is to see when it first arrives and determine if you think it has staying power to influence fashion as a whole, and which will translate further down. For example, I was absolutely dying to get Raf's oversized pleated pants from last fall, but no one bought the iconic wool ones in NYC because they didn't think it would sell. But fashion shows need to make an overt statement to get people to notice any changes to the norm, before they trickle down. Now, every runway has pleated pants, albeit less overt, but Raf was one of the first to make a firm statement about it, basically saying, this is the shape of things to come, and doing it "loudly" enough so everyone sits up and takes notice (even if it's to look and grimace). Even 10 Corso Cuomo salespeople sniffed their noses at the look when it first came out, but now, really, you can see signs of Raf's foresight everywhere. It's all in mental editing and not necessarily trying to ape the runways, which are called shows primarily for that reason: they're shows. You shouldn't necessarily adopt the looks wholesale.

          Comment

          • nqth
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2006
            • 350

            #6
            Re: The fit



            I am not trying to ape the runway. It's not about runway looks. I want to find some "rules" in construction, that in general apply to variety of silhouettes, fromskinnyto oversized... The deconstruction game seems to play about some unchanged things.







            Comment

            • xcoldricex
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 1347

              #7
              Re: The fit

              [quote user="bakla"]

              Now, this coat you have (do you own it?) might work because of your height, but that's already iffy when you think of volume on your frame (converting your measurements, you're 5'5", and most designer clothes are proportioned for taller people).



              [/quote]



              170cm = ~5'7" not 5'5"



              Comment

              • bakla
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2006
                • 902

                #8
                Re: The fit

                [quote user="xcoldricex"][quote user="bakla"]

                Now, this coat you have (do you own it?) might work because of your height, but that's already iffy when you think of volume on your frame (converting your measurements, you're 5'5", and most designer clothes are proportioned for taller people).



                [/quote]



                170cm = ~5'7" not 5'5"
                [/quote]





                You're completely right - I was using a calculater to divide cm into inches, and when I converted it to feet, I misread the sum 5.57 feet as as 5'5". My bad.





                Heck, we're the same height! I know I'm getting rid of some of my old Cloak stuff now because the proprotions were never right, but I just...erm... made them work...!

                Comment

                • xcoldricex
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 1347

                  #9
                  Re: The fit

                  anyhow, is there a perfect bagginess? as much as i like seeing yohji on the runway, his clothes never seem to fit me right- they just look ill fitted. shouldn't there be some area where things look baggy but not ill fitting? i don't think this has anything to do with fashion trends- as i didn't really like most of raf's interpretations of bagginess. i think his bagginess still required a skinny frame to hang it on- i don't think anyone that wasn't as skinny as a raf/dior model could carry those looks well.

                  Comment

                  • casem
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 2590

                    #10
                    Re: The fit

                    For me, any experiments in silhouette should be subtle, a slightly droopy shoulder, a slightly boxy silhouette, or light fabric that drapes over the body is OK. Drastic changes in silhouette, although they may be artistic, are rarely wearable or flattering, while clothes that fit your body just right will always be in style. The problem with an oversized look is that most American men still wear clothes that are too large for them (if I see one more button up shirt billowing out of ill fitting black slacks I'm going to scream) so you walk a fine line between cutting edge and average slob if you try the oversized thing.

                    If the silhouette is going to be bigger, I prefer lighter fabrics that move or drape with a roomier cut, or materials that naturally have more volume like down coats, this way you still know there is a body underneath. But I prefer that stiffer more structural fabrics be cut closer to the body; but you can still play with how sharp or soft you make the angles formed by the stiffer material.

                    I generally wear more fitted things because I find them most flattering. But the silhouette I wear can depend on my mood, if I'm feeling sexy I'll wear some ass grabbing jeans, if I'm feeling cuddly I'll wear a roomy sweater, or if I'm feeling anti-social maybe a big coat.

                    As for Raf for Jil Sander, I have mixed feelings. I think he did a very smart thing in offering a variety of silhouettes. This is both commercially intelligent (something for everyone) and artistically credible (keeping with the JS core of experimentation with silhouette and fabric). There are the black pants that are very skinny (I love them, but I need more black pants like a hole in the head), some of the dress shirts are very fitted, and many of the sweaters are fitted, while much of the outerwear has a roomier cut, dropped shoulder, or boxy shape. I think it works in some pieces, like the tan down filled coat, but some of the overcoats just look ill fitting. You also have the option of sizing down and getting a cut that is still unique but not sloppy looking. I tried on some of the suit jackets, and some of them did look fresh without looking ill fitting, they had a slightly boxier cut and stronger shoulder than I am used to, but they still fit close to the body (this was after sizing down from my usual IT 48 in JS to a 46).

                    Anyway, I hope this was coherent, I'll clean it up/add to it later if it isn't, but I've been thinking about this lately. I didn't want to talk too much about Jil Sander, but I went there recently and the SA wanted me to try on EVERYTHING so that's kind of where my point of reference for different silhouettes is at for the moment.
                    music

                    Comment

                    • casem
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 2590

                      #11
                      Re: The fit



                      Thought I would add examples:



                      This is my favorite jacket in the collection, the puffiness looks totally natural and well fitted to me.





                      This is a big NO for me. It's so big it makes those perfect black pants look like leggings.





                      The cut of this suit is just perfect. It looks slim yet it's not following the body exactly, it's slightly boxy and instead of coming in at the waist, the fabric sort of folds over, it also helps that the jacket is a bit short.



                      This is just slightly roomy (dropped shoulder) but it still looks clean and well fitted...



                      ... while this just looks too big.

                      music

                      Comment

                      • bakla
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2006
                        • 902

                        #12
                        Re: The fit

                        Excellent posts, Casem. Your summation is exactly what I myself have been thinking regarding the pieces that I tried of the new Jil Sander line. The super-dropped shoulder just looked sloppy and ill-fitted on me, and unfortunately, Jeffrey did not have all the styles in sizes down for me to try. I'll try and post a pic of my APC coat when I'm wearing it, to show how I think I've approximated the volume but in pieces that I feel more comfortable with, size-wise.

                        Comment

                        • nqth
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 350

                          #13
                          Re: The fit



                          Good post:-)



                          I think that classic cut might be more interesting if thereare bolder patterns, textures, different fabrics... If everything is just right, it can easly get boring. So I prefer a more adventurous looks at JS.



                          Anyway I saw a real life:-) picture of Adrien Brody in L'Uomo Vogue and he wore a slightly boxy pinstripe suit, the collar was off his chest, the shoulder was slightly falling. (I think he was wearing a shoulder bag.)And he looked just right. It ismore nonchalantly than very fitted look.





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