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  • casem
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2006
    • 2590

    Creativity and Oppression



    So, I need to write a fat paper for my final Master's Degree course here at NYU. I had an idea for a topic and thought what a better forum of intellectuals to toss this around with than SZ! So here goes, it's music related but I think the same thing can be applied to fashion in that same elements can squash creativity in any "art".</p>

    Here's the proposal I send my prof:</p>

    I
    want to talk about what it means to be creative under oppression
    through the life of Shostakovich, since he was one of the few composers
    to stay behind in Russia during the Communist revolution. I will focus
    less on the details of his life (so it doesn't get book report-y) and
    more on how he worked to express himself within political confines and
    how he was able to critique the system from within. I also had an idea
    for another element, but it might go beyond the scope of the paper. To
    keep the piece relevant, I thought I could talk about how today many
    people complain about the dying out of a creative environment in NYC,
    and specifically how irrelevant classical music has become to most of
    society and what means of "oppression" (in NYC) may have led to this.


    For example: profit(market)-driven art, academic dogma, academic competition, NYC's inaccessibility to the non-rich, and lack of opportunity for new music
    within the classical world.</p>

    Discuss.


    </p>
    music
  • Faust
    kitsch killer
    • Sep 2006
    • 37852

    #2
    Re: Creativity and Oppression

    I shall ponder and get back to you. Obviously, my field is literature, and there are plenty examples there (Bulgakov, Ilf and Petrov, Solzhenitsyn, etc.). I need to think how to tie this together.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

    Comment

    • Fuuma
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2006
      • 4050

      #3
      Re: Creativity and Oppression



      Seems sort of hard to approach as you've got two entirely variable environments where the amount of credible studies must be limited (especially NYC contemporary scene, lots of articles but not that much meat I would think).</P>


      I'd take a look at Kundera's writing.</P>
      Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
      http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

      Comment

      • casem
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 2590

        #4
        Re: Creativity and Oppression

        True, I'm thinking more and more I'll stick to just the Shostakovich part for now, as I'm running out of time and I already have much of the research done for that. The second half, about New York, I find more interesting though, maybe it's something I'll pursue in my PhD. But still, it would be nice to hear some discussion here (even if you know nothing about music, make it fashion related).
        music

        Comment

        • casem
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2006
          • 2590

          #5
          Re: Creativity and Oppression

          Wow, no takers? Was it something I said? Let's put it this way:<DIV>What forces foster a creative environment and what forces stifle creativity? Another aspect is that some think you need oppression to be creative (the romantic notion of the suffering artist).</DIV>
          music

          Comment

          • Seventh
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 270

            #6
            Re: Creativity and Oppression



            hey casem,</p>

            I think one of the difficulties of your question is trying to relate Soviet repression to US capitalist repression (not knocking the question, just as Fuuma said, there are a huge number of variables). I am very interested in the religious faith of Tarkovsky and Kieslowski (filmmakers) as a means of subverting and critiquing a totalitarian system. However, I think a critique of why art is stagnating in NYC is equally justified but the reasons are very different. </p>

            If you are dropping the NYC component (which is independently a good question and one that should be studied IMO), a creative environment thrives in mild upheaval--Berlin 1920s, Berlin 1980s-early90s, London 1960s and 1980s, Soviet Union pre-Stalin, NYC 1970s, when things are a little unstable, living conditions cheap and flexible, there is an opportunity for creative action that is inclusive of a wide variety participants. </p>

            But beyond that, it is a really hard question to answer, some artists seem to work best under oppression or going it alone, others thrive by creating groups or social niches that give them the support to continue. </p>

            The other reason your question is so difficult to answer is that it is so broad! (I think you better go for that PhD!)
            </p>

            Comment

            • Fuuma
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 4050

              #7
              Re: Creativity and Oppression



              Start your thesis with this quote:</P>
              <DIV class=widget-content>"You know what the fellow said: In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." -Orson Welles as Harry Lime in The Third Man </DIV>
              Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
              http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

              Comment

              • Fuuma
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2006
                • 4050

                #8
                Re: Creativity and Oppression



                There is also a pretty good interview ofAbbas Kiarostami on the taste of cherry dvd where he discussed workingunder the Iranian regime. I'd say I would try to tighten the scope of your paper first and then look for authors discussing:</P>


                1) aesthetics and creation (think Kant and proabably a bunch of music-related authors you've read about)</P>


                2) Working underoppression (don't know much about this topic, let us know what you find out). I'd say the dimensions of external and especiallyinternalized censorship are both relevent. The last one does apply to the NYC scene too if you want to discuss that.</P>


                3) Books specific to Shostakovich and his experience working in Russia.</P>
                Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                Comment

                • seiji
                  Junior Member
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 13

                  #9
                  Re: Creativity and Oppression



                  Is your subject about oppression of creativity in classical music?</p>

                  </p>

                  You said that classical music has become irrelevant to a big part of the population. I think that classical music has always concerned only a small part of the population and that classical music can't die because there will be always people who enjoy it. The problem today is maybe the mass production of pianists especially in China (they are 60million) and the importance of technique. For instance when you listen some Horowitz,Samson Francois,Dinu Lipati you notice that they don't play perfectly but this is music. You hear a soul when you listen a record. Today more and more artists play like robots and you can't be touched by what they do. Classical music is becoming too "false-intellectual" and this is why it carries this image of yuppies'hobby. I think the most relevant artist of the twentieth century is Glenn Gould but it can be very controversial. I watched a lot of movies about his life and for me he is the first man who was able to play with a such brillant skill and whole-heartedly. You should hear his Goldberg variations before he died or Dinu Lipati's last recital in Besancon.Hope you will enjoy
                  </p>

                  Sorry for my english :p</p>

                  Comment

                  • casem
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 2590

                    #10
                    Re: Creativity and Oppression



                    So, I am dropping the New York element for now, it's just too hard to define what a creaive environment is in the first place, much less what is responsible for destroying it. The creative enclaves in NYC are like puddy anyway, you plop millionaire dollar apt. in the middle and all the creative stuff smooshes out the sides. </p>

                    Classical music was the popular music of its day. Sure it was commisioned by an elite class but it was enjoyed by the masses. Especially during the romantic era where virtuoso composer/performers where the pop stars of their time. It has always been a concern of mine, since I'm devoting my life to making classical music, that it is enjoyed by so few today. It worries me that for even very distinguished composers in academia, their pieces have only been played a couple times and enjoyed by a handful of people. But I don't think classical music is irrelevant, I just don't want to be engaged in the sort of self-indulgent intellectual masturbatory exercise of making music for only intellectual elites to fawn over. For this reason, I am very interested in minimalism because I think it was the most recent culturally significant movement in classical music. Even if you don't know Philip Glass or Steve Reich, most everyone has heard their music and certainly everyone has heard music that was deeply effected by the movement. Which reminds me, about half the music for TV commercials lately smacks so strongly of Glass it's incredible!
                    </p>

                    Anyway, I love Glenn Gould too! I read a few books on him and saw some films, my instrument in undergrad was piano and when I was young I fantasized about being an eccentric virtuoso like him [:O] But, I went down the composition path and now I'm not so hot on piano.</p>

                    All this being said, come to my Master's recital on Dec 8 at NYU to hear my music and what I'm doing about all these problems [^o)]</p>

                    [quote user="seiji"]</p>

                    Is your subject about oppression of creativity in classical music?</p>

                    </p>

                    You said that classical music has become irrelevant to a big part of the population. I think that classical music has always concerned only a small part of the population and that classical music can't die because there will be always people who enjoy it. The problem today is maybe the mass production of pianists especially in China (they are 60million) and the importance of technique. For instance when you listen some Horowitz,Samson Francois,Dinu Lipati you notice that they don't play perfectly but this is music. You hear a soul when you listen a record. Today more and more artists play like robots and you can't be touched by what they do. Classical music is becoming too "false-intellectual" and this is why it carries this image of yuppies'hobby. I think the most relevant artist of the twentieth century is Glenn Gould but it can be very controversial. I watched a lot of movies about his life and for me he is the first man who was able to play with a such brillant skill and whole-heartedly. You should hear his Goldberg variations before he died or Dinu Lipati's last recital in Besancon.Hope you will enjoy
                    </p>

                    Sorry for my english :p</p>[/quote]
                    music

                    Comment

                    • seiji
                      Junior Member
                      • Aug 2007
                      • 13

                      #11
                      Re: Creativity and Oppression



                      I think that classical music has always concerned only a small part of the population and that classical music can't die because</p>

                      sorry, when i read again this sentence, that was not really what i mean. Well, in my opinion i think that today even if a big part of population seems not to enjoy classical music i think it s mainly because they ignore this or because they can't stand this image of privileged people music. When i am going to concerts i see that most people coming there are there just to see people of the same category (opera is maybe the most relevant exemple) and those people for the most part of them don't understand anything about music appart using technical worlds to look like intellectual. A lot of tickets seem to be sold for business men comitee who want to show that they also have in their life some intellectual hobbies. I think this kind of public is the worst for classical music because they destroy as many masturbating intellectuals do the foundation of music: a communication between the artist and the public. When i am listening to the radio there are so boring discussions about Chopin music interpretation etc... they forget that we have foremost listen music with our heart and not with our neurons. It's not only with instruments but also for composers. I think that classial music can be enjoyed again by the masses if classical music become again true music. Today a big part of music (classical or pop) seems to be made only for a commercial issue. But things doesn't seem to go in this way because as i said before i think that what is expected today is more digital performance (in the case of piano) than musicality.
                      </p>

                      I just don't want to be engaged in the sort of self-indulgent
                      intellectual masturbatory exercise of making music for only
                      intellectual elites to fawn over
                      </p>

                      i love this sentence :p I am living in France and France is very well-known for masturbatory exercise hehe and this not only in music. French people love to talk a lot for autosatisfaction and no results. To make the classical more popular we need to destroys all theses border made by pseudo intellectuals whose objective is just to defend their territory. What i noticed is that people who are not used to listen classical music at home are always impressed when i lent them some good records and their impressions are pretty true because they don't have any bias about classical music. </p>

                      All this being said, come to my Master's recital on Dec 8 at NYU to hear my music and what I'm doing about all these problems</p>

                      Well, i am living in Paris so it will be difficult to come to NY. I am a student and have a lot of work atm. But i've never been to the US so i would be glad to come to your recital one day. You are a composer? </p>

                      I hope i've been more explicit this time even if english constitutes a border for me.
                      </p>

                      Comment

                      • gius
                        Junior Member
                        • Nov 2007
                        • 14

                        #12
                        Re: Creativity and Oppression



                        we were discussing this in class today
                        (i'm in textiles //
                        basically i'm in between everything -- fine art, fashion, handcraft...)</p>

                        some people value their work really highly, so they end up getting a job in something else, something stable and that has regular pay, so it doesn't interfere with what kind of work they really want to produce
                        in the end, if what work they make doesn't sell, it doesn't matter because they don't live off of it. so, i think it all depends how you manage yourself-- if you want to let something oppress you or not</p>

                        the only oppression i feel right now is my school lol
                        there's work i'd like to focus on, but the time doesn't allow it. we have a lot of homework in each class and there's not much time to improve, but i think the point of my program is really just to learn all the basic techniques
                        and then perhaps it's in the third year when we can have more of a focus and do what we like</p>

                        as for classical music... i think people are just not so exposed to it? i hardly see it on tv for one thing, and many children watch tv
                        </p>

                        Comment

                        • sam_tem
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 650

                          #13
                          Re: Creativity and Oppression



                          i guess this conversation is old and your paper is almost done now, but i'm glad to hear that you dropped the NYC idea as it really is a separate topic from that of political opression.</P>


                          i guess your paper was largely focused on music since that's what your majoring in, but if you were going to includeother artskieslowki would have been a great example to use for film. His film Camera Buff even addresses the issue specifically.</P>


                          As for classical music, your statement of "self-indulgent intellectual masturbatory exercise of making music for only intellectual elites to fawn over" reall makes me cringe. Perhaps this statement is valid for specific circumstances, but a statement like this is way too easy to be taken out of context and should be avoided at all cost. Just because a composer asks his audience to make more of an investment in listening and understanding their music does not make it self-indulgent or masturbatory. Reich and Glass have provided some great compositions butits just irritating that they arethe only household names in modern composition based solely off the fact that their music is more marketable. This ties in very well with the theme of dying creativity in NYC as eventhe art world isdependent onfads of what happens to be marketable at the time. Late composers such as Nono and Scelsidid much more to make modern composition stimulating but will never reach the same amount of acclaim since their musicis more demanding. On one hand you bemoan the fact that NYC is losing it's creativity and yet at the same time you seem topraise music that resonates more immediately (and is moremarketable)yetignores the more creative advancements in modern composition. </P>


                          Perhaps your comments about NYC is related more to the issue of the artists being displaced due to being priced out of living, but in today's world where artist can be more nomadic (Berlin anyone?)i don't find this to be near as big of a problem as that of the lack of actual creativity that the art world churns out.</P>

                          Comment

                          • Seventh
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 270

                            #14
                            Re: Creativity and Oppression

                            [quote user="sam_tem"]

                            As for classical music, your statement of "self-indulgent intellectual masturbatory exercise of making music for only intellectual elites to fawn over" reall makes me cringe. Perhaps this statement is valid for specific circumstances, but a statement like this is way too easy to be taken out of context and should be avoided at all cost. Just because a composer asks his audience to make more of an investment in listening and understanding their music does not make it self-indulgent or masturbatory. Reich and Glass have provided some great compositions butits just irritating that they arethe only household names in modern composition based solely off the fact that their music is more marketable. This ties in very well with the theme of dying creativity in NYC as eventhe art world isdependent onfads of what happens to be marketable at the time. Late composers such as Nono and Scelsidid much more to make modern composition stimulating but will never reach the same amount of acclaim since their musicis more demanding. On one hand you bemoan the fact that NYC is losing it's creativity and yet at the same time you seem topraise music that resonates more immediately (and is moremarketable)yetignores the more creative advancements in modern composition. </p>
                            [/quote]

                            Really well said and a great point.[Y]
                            I really don't think an artist's chief goal should be "reaching a wider audience", shouldn't it be making the best work for the audience that the artist cares about (however small or particular that audience is)?

                            Comment

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