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zamb
03-28-2008, 11:28 AM
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<h1>LeBron James Vogue cover criticized</h1></div><div class="hd"></div><div class="hd">Here we Go Again.........................</div><div class="hd"><p class="byline">
By MEGAN K. SCOTT, Associated Press Writer Mar 24, 7:18 pm EDT
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NEW YORK - When Vogue announced its April cover starring LeBron James (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3704/;_ylt=AkD1tkXZuCN4Nl8UNNiPY2SLvLYF) and Gisele Bundchen, the magazine noted with some fanfare that James was the first black man to grace its cover.</p>



But the image is stirring up controversy, with some commentators
decrying the photo as perpetuating racial stereotypes. James strikes
what some see as a gorilla-like pose, baring his teeth, with one hand
dribbling a ball and the other around Bundchen?s tiny waist.</p>


It?s an image some have likened to ?King Kong? and Fay Wray.</p>


?It conjures up this idea of a dangerous black man,? said Tamara Walker, 29, of Philadelphia.</p>


Photographer Annie Leibovitz shot the 6-foot-9 NBA star and the
5-foot-11 Brazilian model for the cover and an inside spread. Vogue
spokesman Patrick O?Connell said the magazine ?sought to celebrate two
superstars at the top of their game? for the magazine?s annual issue
devoted to size and shape.</p>

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?We think Lebron James and Gisele Bundchen look beautiful together and we are honored to have them on the cover,? he said.</p>


James told The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer he was pleased with the cover, saying he was ?just showing a little emotion.?</p>


?Everything my name is on is going to be criticized in a good way or
bad way,? James told the paper. ?Who cares what anyone says??</p>


But magazine analyst Samir Husni believes the photo was deliberately
provocative, adding that it ?screams King Kong.? Considering Vogue?s
influential history, he said, covers are not something that the
magazine does in a rush.</p>


?So when you have a cover that reminds people of King Kong and
brings those stereotypes to the front, black man wanting white woman,
it?s not innocent,? he said.</p>


O?Connell, the Vogue spokesman, declined further comment.</p>


In a column at ESPN.com, Jemele Hill called the cover ?memorable for
all the wrong reasons.? But she said in an interview that the image is
not unusual ? white athletes are generally portrayed smiling or
laughing, while black sports figures are given a ?beastly sort of vibe.?</p>


For example, former NBA star Charles Barkley was depicted breaking
free of neck and wrist shackles on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
Dennis Rodman graced the cover of Rolling Stone with horns poking out
of his forehead and his red tongue hanging out.</p>


Images of black male athletes as aggressive and threatening
?reinforce the criminalization of black men,? said Damion Thomas,
assistant professor in the Department of Kinesiology at University of
Maryland.</p>


But others say the image show James? game face ? nothing more. And they note that Bundchen hardly looks frightened.</p>


?James is a huge, black beautiful masculine statue and Gisele is a
feminine, sexy gorgeous doll,? said Christa Thomas, 36, a black account
supervisor in Los Angeles.</p>


?I didn?t see any kind of racist overtone to it,? she said. ?I still
don?t. I think there is such a hypersensitivity to race still in this
country.?</p>


Husni said it is too soon to know how the magazine is selling,
though the controversy could increase sales as people rush out to get a
?collector?s edition.?</p>


If nothing else, Walker said the cover underscores the need for a more diverse workplace.</p>


?If more people of color worked for Vogue in positions of editorial
authority, perhaps someone in the room might have been able to read the
image the way so many of us are reading it now, and had the power to do
something about it,? she said.</p>

Faust
03-28-2008, 11:33 AM
What do you think, Zam?

zamb
03-28-2008, 04:42 PM
What do you think, Zam?
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</p><p class="MsoNormal">My Blackness</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">My sadness</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Being despised for my darkness</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span>Enslaved????</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">I am still brave</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Bloodied but unbowed</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Standing tall to the grave</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Taken my opium</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Now I am numb</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Fighting winless</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Being wise but dumb</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">I am mine enemy</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">My enemy in me</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span>Smokescreen</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Distortion of Color</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Human reality</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Sameness within</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Different Color without</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">All having one heart</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">But a different mouth</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Argent?monaie</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">The great equalizer</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Separating friends????..</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Bringing enemies together</p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Black??.white!!!</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">No green conquers all</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Having, wanting</p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Creates a transparent wall?????..</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p class="MsoNormal">my thoughts..........</p>

Faust
03-28-2008, 04:55 PM
So, what do you think, Zam?! Haha, just kidding [66]</p>

I noticed the cover on the newsstand, and I knew right off the bat that it will stir up some shit. People forget that it's Vogue, and thus absolutely irrelevant in a socio-political context (although I may be wrong here, I don't know). I am sure Ms. Wintour was happy to stir shit up - she's so good at it. I am surprised that this is all they've got. If I was a black political leader, I would point out that they could've put someone more fitting than James, and that this cover perpetuates the myth that the only two ways out of the ghetto is playing ball and rapping. Nike and MTV aren't the only avenues to success...
</p>

jay
03-28-2008, 06:49 PM
Personally, I found the cover playful and think the media, once again, is make much to do about nothing. LeBron is just a kid and he is acting like a kid on the cover.

zamb
03-28-2008, 09:52 PM
So, what do you think, Zam?! Haha, just kidding [66]</P>


I noticed the cover on the newsstand, and I knew right off the bat that it will stir up some shit. People forget that it's Vogue, and thus absolutely irrelevant in a socio-political context (although I may be wrong here, I don't know). I am sure Ms. Wintour was happy to stir shit up - she's so good at it. I am surprised that this is all they've got. If I was a black political leader, I would point out that they could've put someone more fitting than James, and that this cover perpetuates the myth that the only two ways out of the ghetto is playing ball and rapping. Nike and MTV aren't the only avenues to success...
</P>


</P>


I havent read vogue in years, or any other fashion magazine for that matter , </P>


I find them at this point to be utterly irrelevant, at a certain point i become tired of sameness, which most of these magazines seem to be suffering from.</P>


I did not grow up in the USA, i moved here a fully grown man (23) so the experiences of blacks in america are something i can only understand intellectually. I knew nothing about the Civil Rights movement, Luther, Rosa Parks or any of the Historical and political factsof blacks in america until i moved here. that being said I know racism existI see it everyday, but classismis the closest thing we have in Jamaica.........which can be easily overcome by Good Manners ands Socio-economic advancement</P>


but yea, the stereotype that is perpetuated is either ball it out or (w)rap it out......... which is the very reason why some of my friends were shocked last week when i said i wanted Barak Obama to win the presidency.... reason being that there needs to be a strong counterforce to the kind of image promoted by James, iverson , JayZ etc.</P>


i want there to be an elimination of the excuse that we subconsciously buy into in our failure to develop ourselves socially, intellectually and spiritually. while vracism does exist and racial stereotypes are indeed promoted, to a large part of the problem ...............we are our own enemies, the enemy in me.........</P>
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What do you think about the poem?</P>

Faust
03-28-2008, 09:58 PM
I like the poem, Zam. [64] I don't know what Argent-monaie means though.

zamb
03-28-2008, 10:03 PM
I like the poem, Zam. [64] I don't know what Argent-monaie means though.
</P>


I wrote the poem Just after i saw your post asking me what i think.</P>


As i was writing i wanted an interesting way of saying money.........my friend/ assistant Mel (who is french) was next to me so i asked her how to say money in french</P>


Argent is the general (formal) word and Monaie is the informal (as in coins or change)</P>

laika
03-28-2008, 10:04 PM
argent=money [75]</P>


edit: zam, you wrote that!? Hmmm, I need to go see this cover before I comment more.....[51]</P>
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Faust
03-28-2008, 10:06 PM
argent=money [75]</p>
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duh! isn't it d'argent?</p>

laika
03-28-2008, 10:10 PM
lol, sorry Faust, I misunderstood your question. [:$] </P>
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Faust
03-28-2008, 10:12 PM
lol, sorry Faust, I misunderstood your question. [:$] </p>
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no, i was duh-ing myself. i was never good at french. i tried one year and college and i can report that i failed completely.</p>

zamb
03-28-2008, 10:17 PM
argent=money [75]</P>


edit: zam, you wrote that!? Hmmm, I need to go see this cover before I comment more.....[51]</P>


Yes i did, thats one of my other talents, that no one (except a few friends and family members) knows about. I think i have written about 150-200 that i have laying around and stored on my computer. Its not something that i can do and the drop of a hat...............its usually in reaction to something (an experience) that i get an inspiration and then i write.</P>
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jay
03-28-2008, 11:02 PM
Zamb, very nice. I am a writer myself and found your work beautiful.

sbw4224
03-28-2008, 11:09 PM
Zamb, great poem! I've seen the cover but honestly had no real reaction. Maybe it's just me but all I saw was a model and basketball player, not a black man and a white woman.

Serendipper
03-29-2008, 12:02 AM
Zamb, very nice. I am a writer myself and found your work beautiful.</P>
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Co-sign.[73]</P>
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I haven't seen the cover so I cannot comment, but as far as race and such things go, I only hope that this forum maintains the cool grace and intelligent decorum that it has shown when discussing raceas it has when discussingother controversialtopics, like shorts on grown men over the age of 20.[:O]</P>
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Speaking of Obama, I think his speech on race was brilliant. It spoke on black AND white perspectives (not to mention asian, gay, hispanic, etc.), which is important. </P>
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jay
03-29-2008, 12:08 AM
Zamb, very nice. I am a writer myself and found your work beautiful.</P>
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Co-sign.[73]</P>
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I haven't seen the cover so I cannot comment, but as far as race and such things go, I only hope that this forum maintains the cool grace and intelligent decorum that it has shown when discussing raceas it has when discussingother controversialtopics, like shorts on grown men over the age of 20.[:O]</P>
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Speaking of Obama, I think his speech on race was brilliant. It spoke on black AND white perspectives (not to mention asian, gay, hispanic, etc.), which is important. </P>
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I generally do not talk politics but I also found Obamas speach brilliant. </P>

gerry
03-30-2008, 06:13 PM
I honestly don't think this cover would have been nearly as big a deal if Vogue didn't have a reputation for staying away from black models... but then again, there has also been a backlash in the model industry about that, so it can hardly be seen as exclusively Vogue.

clay
03-30-2008, 07:31 PM
I saw the cover and thought nothing of it. Then I read about the
controversy on The JC Report( Jason Campbell is a black man I recently found out) and I looked again at the cover and OK I
get it
only cause it was pointed it out. I still don't mind it but
those that do probably are right to a degree. But if it were a white man doing
the same thing there would be no issue, just a athlete showing a
little emotion. I am one the most sensitive people around when it comes
to racism in America towards black people and I am not upset. I just thought why James? But everyone is talking about it and I'm sure that has helped sales of this great "first" for Vogue. I wonder what Andre thinks.
</p>

Lets be frank, dark black people still remind others and blacks themselves of apes. Is that a racist stereotype? You bet it is. I wish it were possible that just by being mild mannered, educated, and intelligent we could be considered equal to one another as humans in this country and the world for that matter. But we are brainwashed by those that have an agenda to keep us distracted from seeing what is really going on
as our world is being changed into something else.. </p>


By the way isnt it crazy we still have black firsts and women firsts in this country. But we are still a young country. I'm sure in another 200 years all that will be behind us.


</p>

Serendipper
03-30-2008, 07:52 PM
..



By the way isnt it crazy we still have black firsts and women firsts in this country. But we are still a young country. I'm sure in another 200 years all that will be behind us.

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.................................................</P>
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...or in another 200 days.[66]</P>
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-Seren</P>
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Canaduh0415
03-30-2008, 08:11 PM
The fact that consciously we acquiesse to racial interpretation harkens to the overall difficulties with foreign or dissimilarities between cultures, or if you happen to believe in the idea of race, then yes race....It has been my cotention for a long time that we spend so much time isolated in these mono-ethnic pockets that when we see the union of simply two different shades we feel the need to become analytical or paranoid...these types of conversation simply fulfill a righteousness to speak on something that we need to be relevant because naturally everyone would have an opinion; a lazy arguement.....scientifically I believe that the substance of race relations in America is mute issue..the combination of two different entities is always a case for friction...so what...see people as vessels of idea's and maybe we will care about the death and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis rather than a vapid model and albeit athletic but overall irrelevant athlete.

Serendipper
03-30-2008, 11:09 PM
I like your thoughts, Canaduh0415.</P>

Faust
03-31-2008, 12:06 PM
I honestly don't think this cover would have been nearly as big a deal if Vogue didn't have a reputation for staying away from black models... but then again, there has also been a backlash in the model industry about that, so it can hardly be seen as exclusively Vogue.</p>

I don't think it would've been a big deal if it wasn't Vogue. Bad publicity = publicity = sales, and no one knows this better than Ms. Vintour. Sometimes I wonder, as Clay does, whether we as a culture have largely moved on, and all we have left is a bunch of academics shouting into the void. But, then again, maybe not...</p>

dontbecruel
03-31-2008, 12:17 PM
I really have to disagree with pretty much all of the comments above (I know, grumpy). The picture is completely offensive. It is obviously supposed to be a pastiche of the poster for the original King Kong, with the model standing in for Fay Wray and the poor basketball player representing the ape. Which is totally fucked up. Whether it's Vogue or any other publication, whether you're sensitive to race issues or not. It may well have been done by the editor to provoke controversy as faust says, but who gives a shit about that? Someone, somewhere in the company should have refused to put that hideous crap on the newsstands.

laika
03-31-2008, 12:38 PM
Thanks, dbc. I am also grumpy and pretty in much in agreement with you.
</p>

Here is the poster in question, along with the cover.</p>

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4793/originalrl3.jpg</p>

Faust
03-31-2008, 12:44 PM
I really have to disagree with pretty much all of the comments above (I know, grumpy). The picture is completely offensive. It is obviously supposed to be a pastiche of the poster for the original King Kong, with the model standing in for Fay Wray and the poor basketball player representing the ape. Which is totally fucked up. Whether it's Vogue or any other publication, whether you're sensitive to race issues or not. It may well have been done by the editor to provoke controversy as faust says, but who gives a shit about that? Someone, somewhere in the company should have refused to put that hideous crap on the newsstands.
</p>

I do. Wintour knows that her magazine in constantly in the cross-hairs, because people will always demand political correctness from the biggest publications, and she knows this (I mean, why aren't PETA throwing pies at Elle editors?) , and will use it to drive sales while laughing with immunity at the offenses she causes.
</p>

laika
03-31-2008, 12:53 PM
I think dbc means that regardless of that, the cover is still offensive and should have been pulled. </p>

I get as frustrated by political correctness as the next person, but I don't think it's paranoid or over-analytical to be disgusted with this cover--it is screamingly offensive, nothing covert or subtle about it.
</p>

dontbecruel
03-31-2008, 01:15 PM
Faust, I understand what you say as an explanation of Anna Wintour's method, but I can't see how it is a justification of it or how she gains "immunity"

Faust
03-31-2008, 01:29 PM
Faust, I understand what you say as an explanation of Anna Wintour's method, but I can't see how it is a justification of it.
</p>

I didn't say it was. It's absolutely not justified. I just said I think the reasons for the cover matter. It was obviously publicity, and here we are giving in to this publicity. I am not saying that it's wrong of us - I am saying that Anna Wintour as a racist, and Vogue as a publication with a racist cover, should be irrelevant. Do you think their aim is to promote racism in America?
</p>

Ok, it seems like I'm telling you to shut up, but I am not. It's just in some perverted way raising stink may contribute to more racism. The more we scream about the wrongs they do, the more they will antagonize us, because in their world it's absolutely valueless, and therefore they are not affected by it. Same with Gaultier sending down sees of fur in response to PETA; same with Marc Jacobs selling logoed garbage in his West Village stores (his real is in SoHo) because the Midwestern tourists buy into the brands, not the goods, etc. etc. They are reflecting the Zeitgeist, so to speak...</p>

EDIT: She gains immunity because she is the reigning queen of fashion media. Throwing a pie in her face is not exactly punishing, is it?</p>

laika
03-31-2008, 02:07 PM
</p>

I didn't say it was. It's absolutely not justified. I just said I think the reasons for the cover matter. It was obviously publicity, and here we are giving in to this publicity. I am not saying that it's wrong of us - I am saying that Anna Wintour as a racist, and Vogue as a publication with a racist cover, should be irrelevant. Do you think their aim is to promote racism in America?
</p>


</p>

They are promoting insensitivity towards racism in America, by turning a certain perception of race relations into a supposedly meaningless and empty magazine cover. And Vogue is not socially irrelevant--as much as I also wish it were--since even if you don't buy the magazine, it's occupies a highly visible position in the public sphere.</p>

I definitely understand your point about how raising a fuss contributes to publicity for the magazine and therefore winds up being somewhat complicit with it. But don't you find it troubling that so many people (not you) are claiming that any racist reading of the cover is paranoid and academic? That the similarity to the poster was a "coincidence?" The willingness to just sweep an offensive image under the carpet by arguing that its critics are over-analytical shrieks of laziness and complacency to me. (Again, none of this is directed at you, Faust--it's a response to the general reactions I've read).</p>

</p>

</p>

Faust
03-31-2008, 02:14 PM
No, I definitely hear what you are saying, Laika. It is a dilemma - do you publicly resent these things while running a risk of being looked at as much ado about nothing, or do you ignore something that is clearly wrong? I look at my students, and I can't wonder enough how blase and jaded they are, but I also get responses like "let the smart ones talk about these things, they simply don't affect us."</p>

EDIT: Ok, but I want to make Vogue irrelevant [86]</p>

laika
03-31-2008, 02:33 PM
well, I'm not so fussed about taking that risk.[75] The real issue--which you are already getting at--is how to protest something in a way that is productive rather than complicit; and meaningful rather than a bunch of hot air. </p>

I have no idea how to do that though. [:^)] The typical modes of protest (which many people I know still engage in) are miserably ineffective. To the point where I think people only bother because they find the gesture self-gratifying. [79]
</p>

zamb
03-31-2008, 03:18 PM
I have so much that i want to..............and will say about this, but i am trying to fit my thoughts into my principles before i speak.......................</p>

</p>

Johnny
03-31-2008, 04:22 PM
This was written about in the Guardian a couple of weeks ago, but the piece then didn't place that particular poster beside the cover. But it is absolutely unmistakably based on that. However...rather than go straight to dbc's conclusion that that means it's automatically fucked up, which was also my initial thought, can I be devil's advocate for a moment. What if it was just dumb. In other words, what if whoever put it together did not mean to make a direct comparison of a strong black man with agorilla, what if he or she saw the poster and thought "hey, I know...we could make a cover that looks like this with the basketball plaer guay and, say, a skinny supermodel"?What if everyone who saw it at editorial level just thought it was a great idea and a good look. Becausetodeliberately draw a parallel between a black man and an ape is so unconscionable that it would not have occured to them?

Faust
03-31-2008, 04:34 PM
I thought about that, but it seems implausible. They can't ALL be idiots at Vogue. However, I would not be surprised if they were insensitive enough to think that it's mere fun, and that those who get offended at it are too uptight or politically correct. I mean, ostensibly, they are concerned purely with form and not content, right? I mean that's the purpose of a bubbly fashion magazine, no?

Johnny
03-31-2008, 04:52 PM
I suppose the specific point I'm trying to make is that it seems implausible that they would have deliberately tried to compare a black man with an ape pejoratively to make a socio-political point because that would, indeed,be seriouslyfucked up beyond comprehension. And if that's right were they being racist?

kira
03-31-2008, 04:55 PM
I thought about that, but it seems implausible. They can't ALL be idiots at Vogue. However, I would not be surprised if they were insensitive enough to think that it's mere fun, and that those who get offended at it are too uptight or politically correct. I mean, ostensibly, they are concerned purely with form and not content, right? I mean that's the purpose of a bubbly fashion magazine, no?
</p>

I would have to think that at some point the reference crossed someone's mind. I just think that they did not care. I think the cover did exactly what was attempted to start a controversy, which as an end result will sell more magazines. I do think they are more concerned with form than content, but I do think they considered the content and its impact. I am not sure what I think about the actual content of the imagery. On the one hand, the stereotype is disgusting if you are considering our history and in reference to that what this alludes to. On the other hand, I think presenting images such as this, as with in the art world, I am thinking about Richard Prince here (he did a series of W covers- two were not even published because the celebrities just did not get it), enables a means of the expression of touchy (for a lack of a better word) subject matter with humor, subversion, directness. I love the expression of something that is wrong in the rightest sense of the word. It enables growth. Also, if the participants are willing, doesn't that same something as well?
</p>

gerry
03-31-2008, 05:49 PM
While I do agree that the similarities between the King Kong poster and Vogue cover are undeniable...</p>

http://shopping.beloblog.com/archives/FASHION%20OSCAR%20DE%20LA%20RENTA.JPG </p>

I'm pretty sure Andre Leon Talley isn't just there for racial diversity. </p>

Fuuma
03-31-2008, 06:20 PM
I have no idea why someone would complain about the treatment of black men in vogue (hardly an issue unless you want to discuss omission) when they have had this whole dressing women as luxury dolls thing that has been going on for yrs.</P>


And being a 6'9" athlete does give one an almost bestial countenance, if he was russian he's be a "russian bear" or some other primal animalistic comparison.</P>

dontbecruel
03-31-2008, 06:36 PM
I suppose the specific point I'm trying to make is that it seems implausible that they would have deliberately tried to compare a black man with an ape pejoratively to make a socio-political point because that would, indeed,be seriouslyfucked up beyond comprehension. And if that's right were they being racist?</p>

You'll probably think this is a poncy answer, but I reckon it's important that we're talking about an image rather than an idea. I think the art director probably just thought it looked cool, but most likely never thought to himself that the reason it felt like a powerful image was that it implicity put a man in the position of an ape. Someone else somewhere down the decision-making chain probably did turn that over in their mind and decided they didn't care. This probably represents institutional racism collectively, but that's not really the point I was making: the point is that the image is offensive, regardless of what the people who made it think about black men.
</p>

laika
03-31-2008, 07:00 PM
I have no idea why someone would complain about the treatment of black men in vogue (hardly an issue unless you want to discuss omission) when they have had this whole dressing women as luxury dolls thing that has been going on for yrs.</p>


And being a 6'9" athlete does give one an almost bestial countenance, if he was russian he's be a "russian bear" or some other primal animalistic comparison.</p>

</p>

This is exactly why I think the scenario Johnny suggests is implausible--nearly every image in Vogue is about exploiting (someone) for profit. They made a very big deal about LeBron being the "first" black man on the cover (how one can "brag" about this in 2008 is beyond me [79]). I'm sure the choice about how to present him was very conscious and calculated to sell as many issues as possible--in this case, by causing controversy, among other things. </p>

kira:</p>

"On the other hand, I think presenting images such as this, as with in
the art world, I am thinking about Richard Prince here (he did a series
of W covers- two were not even published because the celebrities just
did not get it), enables a means of the expression of touchy (for a
lack of a better word) subject matter with humor, subversion,
directness. I love the expression of something that is wrong in the rightest sense of the word. It enables growth."</p>

I like this idea, and agree that in the realm of art, it can be a very powerful strategy. But I don't think American Vogue (at least under Anna) has either the intention or capacity to be subversive. It is among the blandest and most commercial publications I can think of, with everything contrived to sell, sell, sell. [71]
</p>

</p>

kira
03-31-2008, 07:17 PM
I have no idea why someone would complain about the treatment of black men in vogue (hardly an issue unless you want to discuss omission) when they have had this whole dressing women as luxury dolls thing that has been going on for yrs.</p>


And being a 6'9" athlete does give one an almost bestial countenance, if he was russian he's be a "russian bear" or some other primal animalistic comparison.</p>

</p>

This is exactly why I think the scenario Johnny suggests is implausible--nearly every image in Vogue is about exploiting (someone) for profit. They made a very big deal about LeBron being the "first" black man on the cover (how one can "brag" about this in 2008 is beyond me [79]). I'm sure the choice about how to present him was very conscious and calculated to sell as many issues as possible--in this case, by causing controversy, among other things. </p>

kira:</p>

"On the other hand, I think presenting images such as this, as with in
the art world, I am thinking about Richard Prince here (he did a series
of W covers- two were not even published because the celebrities just
did not get it), enables a means of the expression of touchy (for a
lack of a better word) subject matter with humor, subversion,
directness. I love the expression of something that is wrong in the rightest sense of the word. It enables growth."</p>

I like this idea, and agree that in the realm of art, it can be a very powerful strategy. But I don't think American Vogue (at least under Anna) has either the intention or capacity to be subversive. It is among the blandest and most commercial publications I can think of, with everything contrived to sell, sell, sell. [71]
</p>

</p>

</p>

agreed. i think that they were aware that the images would spark some type of reaction and it would sell, sell being the most opportune thing. I dont think that they had specifically in mind, 'King Kong' and to be that subversive. although, that would make the cover great if that was the case...
</p>

laika
03-31-2008, 07:28 PM
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the controversy over the 1995 comme collection with the striped pajamas? An interesting case of "misinterpretation" that was....

dontbecruel
04-01-2008, 02:28 AM
Yes, it seemed incredible that Rei (and even Joffe, who is Jewish) didn't make the connection between striped pyjamas, serial numbers printed on the models and cropped hair. But apparently they really were horrified when they realised. Do we believe the story as they tell it?

pbt
04-01-2008, 02:43 AM
Yes, it seemed incredible that Rei (and even Joffe, who is Jewish) didn't make the connection between striped pyjamas, serial numbers printed on the models and cropped hair. But apparently they really were horrified when they realised. Do we believe the story as they tell it?
</p>

Not particularly and much less so given that the date of the collection coincided with the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. </p>

laika
04-01-2008, 02:45 AM
dbc, that's why I thought of it--because of the confusion over intentions. It does seem incredible that theydid notmake the connection, especiallygiven the anniversary. But they pulled the striped fabric from the collection when they realized they had caused offense. I remember reading that Rei was very upset about it.

AKA*NYC
04-01-2008, 03:07 AM
It's all thanks to this film:</p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; white-space: pre-wrap; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2751/porterbr7.gif (http://imageshack.us) </span>

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; white-space: pre-wrap; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">
</span></p>

pbt
04-01-2008, 03:16 AM
Charlotte and Dirk? B&amp;W still?

AKA*NYC
04-01-2008, 03:18 AM
Yup. :)

pbt
04-01-2008, 03:26 AM
Right it had b&amp;w sequences didn't it? and yeah similarly controversial.

clay
04-01-2008, 03:46 AM
Yeah I forgot about that[&lt;:o)]

clay
04-01-2008, 04:23 AM
I take back my previous post. After seeing that actual poster, it is totally screwed up that Vogue and Lebron actually did that shit!!!! No time to discuss why, but i'm offended now. I did not have a actual ref of the poster in my mind which made me a bit distant from it, but now I see why people are pissed. They are right to be.</P>

Faust
04-29-2008, 02:02 PM
bump. any new developments or comments on this?

Chinorlz
05-01-2008, 05:22 PM
The community at large has moved onto the "controversial" nature of the new vanity fair cover with Miley Cyrus ;)

Faust
05-01-2008, 05:37 PM
haha, true that.

Chinorlz
05-01-2008, 05:44 PM
haha, true that.
</P>


You know how it goes with the public... it's only controversial for a month at most</P>

Faust
05-01-2008, 05:46 PM
it's rather sad that they keep feeding us that shit, and we keep eating it, and they keep laughing. i hate the public. i want martial law. cleansing based on IQ or something. please.

Chinorlz
05-01-2008, 05:50 PM
it's rather sad that they keep feeding us that shit, and we keep eating it, and they keep laughing. i hate the public. i want martial law. cleansing based on IQ or something. please.
</P>


I like that....</P>


is that bad?</P>


sub 100 = sayonara?</P>

Faust
05-01-2008, 05:54 PM
something like that. and take their children to concentration camp with real education. bam, no more hollywood in ten years, cause noone is interested.

Fuuma
05-01-2008, 05:58 PM
<SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">You learn something everyday, often useless info like the name of a teen star. That picture isn't bad and I don't share American blinders on 15 y/o and sexuality, especially considering it is probably coyly used by Disney to sell her to the public. The video with her dad is rather disturbing though, sorta Serge/Charlotte Gainsbourg but with none of the artistry and tongue in cheek of lemon incest.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-CA style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

lowrey
05-02-2008, 06:44 AM
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


hahagood comparison, I agree.</P>

kira
05-04-2008, 02:43 AM
faust does that mean no more teen highschool flicks with the same actors :(?[83]</p>

superbad wasnt that bad [8-|]
</p>

</p>

EDIT: SUPERBAD-------it was funny in a stupid kind of a way- i laughed but laughed at myself for laughing- sometimes we need that.[75]

</p>

Avantster
05-04-2008, 11:45 AM
how funny, i just watched that today. needed a silly mindless comedy. [75]
</p>

Chinorlz
05-04-2008, 02:47 PM
hands down one of the best sequences in the movie is where they flash back and the fat kid can't stop drawing penises. What sort of genius mind comes up with that?!!?!?!?!?! I love it!!!

Avantster
05-04-2008, 11:41 PM
hands down one of the best sequences in the movie is where they flash back and the fat kid can't stop drawing penises. What sort of genius mind comes up with that?!!?!?!?!?! I love it!!!</p>

I know! in the ending credits too, endless pictures of the drawings. penis firemen, penis trains, penis rockets, penis wizards... disturbingly hilarious.
</p>

Avantster
05-04-2008, 11:46 PM
Yes, well said ndf. reminds me of this quote from Susan Sontag that I think I read somewhere here on sz...</p>


</p>

<font class="sqq">?<span class="sqq">The
discovery of the good taste of bad taste can be very liberating. The
man who insists on high and serious pleasures is depriving himself of
pleasure; he continually restricts what he can enjoy; in the constant
exercise of his good taste he will eventually price himself out of the
market, so to speak. Here Camp taste supervenes upon good taste as a
daring and witty hedonism. It makes the man of good taste cheerful,
where before he ran the risk of being chronically frustrated. It is
good for the digestion.</span>?</font></p>

</p>

Chinorlz
05-05-2008, 12:29 AM
I was just thinking about who was given the job to fill an entire notebook with penis drawings. That must have taken a good bit of time... to think that this person (or persons) had to draw penis after penis... the whole time thinking about how this is what they went to college for.</P>


That in itself is a great story hahahaha</P>


Toilet humor is some of my favorite. My favorite comedian hands down is Dave Attell. The man is a genius. </P>


Another hilariously underrated movie is Idiocracy. In the future, Fuddruckers becomes Buttfuckers? I mean come on!!! That's GOLD!!!!</P>

Faust
05-08-2008, 05:06 PM
Yes, well said ndf. reminds me of this quote from Susan Sontag that I think I read somewhere here on sz...</p>


</p>

<font class="sqq">?<span class="sqq">The
discovery of the good taste of bad taste can be very liberating. The
man who insists on high and serious pleasures is depriving himself of
pleasure; he continually restricts what he can enjoy; in the constant
exercise of his good taste he will eventually price himself out of the
market, so to speak. Here Camp taste supervenes upon good taste as a
daring and witty hedonism. It makes the man of good taste cheerful,
where before he ran the risk of being chronically frustrated. It is
good for the digestion.</span>?</font></p>

</p>

</p>

Yea, but that becomes a question of limits, I guess. Whereas I enjoyed American Pie, I thought Superbad was just dumb.</p>

lowrey
05-08-2008, 05:23 PM
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


I think they're quite different, american pie was a pretty typical teenager comedy, superbad was just a big joke, in a good way imo. saw it a second time with a couple of friends who wanted to watch it, and it was still pretty funny. just ridicilous punchlines, and its better if youre drunk [86]</P>