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  • Fuuma
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2006
    • 4050

    Copying an existing design



    What's your take on blatant copies of an existing design, what are the boundaries you would/wouldn't cross and how closely have you followed them?




    I'm posting this because I noted that:




    -Some of us have done it on a individual level (see some of Chinorz pet projects)




    -Semi-established sellers have ripped forum favourites (think blackscissors) and been relatively popular doing so




    -Respected designers like Augusta have blatantly copied another designer's (Poell) wares and are being sold at reputed shops (like Atelier)




    You can be as specific and down to earth as you want or dazzle us with your "f for fake" and copies in a postmodern age talking points.




    Go!

    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff
  • zamb
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 5834

    #2
    Re: Copying an existing design



    I personally am against creating an exact replica of another's design...........



    I can make a leeway for someone like Albert who is not a designer and is creating his own DIY version of an existing product (especially if such a product is ridiculously overpriced)



    but when a company who is in the business of designing and selling copies of another companies ideas, i find that to be utterly immoral and evil. that being said, I am not against borrowing ideas, (e.g ) Poell is known for his Over-lock technique (among other things) if another designer wants to use such a technique, so long as it is used in a way that is completely different from Carol's way of doing it, i can accept that

    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

    Comment

    • theetruscan
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2008
      • 2270

      #3
      Re: Copying an existing design



      I think it's a tricky issue. I kind of (in my head) break it down, fairly or unfairly into 4 categories.



      1) Inspiration. This is fine, it's natural, anything else would be kind of weird actually. Designers are inspired by elements of others designs, that seems good. As long as it is just inspiration, this seems fine.




      2) Cheap knockoffs. These are almost always pale shadows of the original and clearly such. I tend to avoid them where I can afford to, but since they're not really competing in the original market, I don't see a big problem. That is, someone in the market for a $400 black scissors (say) fencing jacket, is almost invariably, not able to drop $6.2k on the original, and so it's not that bothersome to me.




      3) Equivalent knockoffs. Things like those recently posted Augusta boots fall in this category. These seem the worst of them. They're designed to capitalize on the popularity of a designer's designs by directly stealing the market. These don't open the style up to new people or anything, they are just designed to directly take market share away without contributing anything.



      4) Upmarket knockoffs. These are weird, but I've definitely seen some pieces from new designers appear in the lineup of more established designers a season/year later, for many times the cost. I dunno how I feel about this, but it is strange.

      Hobo: We all dress up. We all put on our armour before we walk out the door, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re trying to be someone else.

      Comment

      • Fuuma
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 4050

        #4
        Re: Copying an existing design



        How about the famed:




        1) wannabe Intern: here's my portfolio




        2) Designer: nice!!! Here's an unpaid internship!! Wow I like that design, mine, mine, mine!!!




        3) intern: it was great, I worked like an animal for three months for no pay, I'm still looking for a job and designer x just released a dress based on my sketches and Horyn called it a "bold new direction for x!"'

        Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
        http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

        Comment

        • Faust
          kitsch killer
          • Sep 2006
          • 37852

          #5
          Re: Copying an existing design



          Fuuma, have I shown you my favorite article on the subject?



          I've mulled this over plenty of times (especially since I devote a whole class to that exact subject). Here is what I think;



          In some circles, designers are judged more or less by their talent. Let's assume that these are the best circles, and leave commercial success and name recognition aside. A designer known for knocking off existing designs will hardly merit the same amount of respect. I know that I am painting a very insular picture here, but I don't really care - it is what it is. I look at it along the same lines as art. Now, of course in art there are famous knock-off artists, like Sherrie Levine, but I doubt she can be designated as a great photographer. So, yea, I guess, if you talk about meritocracy, then knocking off existing designs is not very rewarding.



          I've thought about what can possibly be the upside of knocking off someone else, and I could only find one. I like the idea of breathing in new life into lost objects, and that's what knocking off does. Moreover, only high end designers can do a quality job of it. The problem is, most do this unintentionally, but some do it purposefully, like Margiela does with Line 14 Replicas, which I think is quite cool - he recreates sartorial history. Granted, he is the only one I know who has this purpose in mind. Actually, the bit about Prada in the last part of the article made me think that. She really loved that old Balenciaga coat, and she had the means of production to recreate it, and not only for herself.



          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

          Comment

          • TypicalFashion
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2007
            • 326

            #6
            Re: Copying an existing design

            [quote user="theetruscan"]

            4) Upmarket knockoffs. These are weird, but I've definitely seen some pieces from new designers appear in the lineup of more established designers a season/year later, for many times the cost. I dunno how I feel about this, but it is strange.



            [/quote]



            I was having a talk about something like this with a friend the other day, and he mentioned the fact that, the original, and best jean in his mind was a 1947 levi's 501.. he compared it to the fact that there are so many japanese labels creating replicas of these jeans, but he asked me at what point its ok for the 'knock off' to be so much more than the original... obviously its a somewhat underdeveloped argument, but its something to think about...



            (end long run-on sentence)



            Comment

            • jak1
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2007
              • 108

              #7
              Re: Copying an existing design

              black scissors on the sufu site does this with leather jackets.. and with amazing results.. but, i have strong opinions regarding designers getting paid for the work.. so, i just keep posting WTB at low prices on the sz classifieds and not buying much.. but, i am sticking to my principles..

              Comment

              • sam_tem
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2007
                • 650

                #8
                Re: Copying an existing design



                i'm all for it but i suppose only because these are thetypes of checks and balances that keep designer labels in line and forging ahead. this is something that occurs in all industries and breeds competition for the benefit of the consumer. designer clothingis valued not just ondesign, but also because of quality and durability. labels shouldn'tneed worry since they should be satisfied with the fact that they can createauniquearticle of clothing ata quality and price point thatcan't be beat. just because it's clothing and relies heavily on a designer's aesthetic and ideas doesn'thave tomean it should be treated any differently from an ipod or a cereal.




                if you run a label and every season people are copying your designs and selling them at a fraction of the price thus hurting your market share, then the answer would be to ensure that your clothing is of a higher quality than the knockoffs and worth the price (which at current price points they should be). if your label fails because of such a thing then i can't help but put the blame on the designer for not creating products that consumers feel were worth the price.

                Comment

                • tofu
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 104

                  #9
                  Re: Copying an existing design



                  the fencing jacket someone ordered came out looking like crap anyway







                  [quote user="theetruscan"]



                  That is, someone in the market for a $400 black scissors (say) fencing jacket, is almost invariably, not able to drop $6.2k on the original, and so it's not that bothersome to me.[/quote]

                  Comment

                  • jak1
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 108

                    #10
                    Re: Copying an existing design

                    agreed. that copy is not very accurate work.. i have seen pics of the dior homme and RO and models and they are a bit closer to the originals.. but, again, I have decided not to go this route..

                    Comment

                    • aruva
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 171

                      #11
                      Re: Copying an existing design



                      An excellent thread. The question I always asked myself is how can one validate the "originality". With all respect to Poell (his name is just used as an example and he is my fav designer) , how can one say that there was no overlocked items existed?.In asia,overlocked stitching is commonly used in plantation bags,and in heavy clothing items used insome parts Now, if he was inspired by that and used the inspiration in his designs, does that qualify as original?. What if "attachment" find inspiration in poell and make thier own fencing jackets?. Or Jun takahashi clothes that are inspired by samurai clothing and ann dem designs ? It is really hard to validate originality and if someone is lucky and gets enou'sgh buzz with a design that was inspired from someone else,by default it may become his original design.




                      Can you differentiate between inspiration and copy?. I have realized inspirationhas become politically perfect verbage for subtle copy in every area.

                      Comment

                      • tofu
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2007
                        • 104

                        #12
                        Re: Copying an existing design



                        the dh designs are a lot easier to copy, especially the four pocket one everyone seems to be getting.





                        the leather still looks cheap, though.





                        and if it looks cheap in photos, i'm sure it looks a lot worse in person.







                        i was contemplating having my hussar jacket copied with a spring weight offwhite leather, but i decided against it.

                        Comment

                        • wild_whiskey
                          Junior Member
                          • Oct 2006
                          • 21

                          #13
                          Re: Copying an existing design



                          I'm not so educated in fashion design history but I can offer my perspective as it applies to my field, graphic design.



                          Something I've always been taught, and try to subscribe to, is that a truly good design is tethered to its content and purpose and should exist as an island in terms of how it relates to other design - it should never be "borrowed" or directly "inspired." The theory is that good design from the same era will still have similar aesthetic tendencies because of indirect correlation. For example, package design for cosmetic products will look similar, not because the designers are copying each other, but because the effect the designers are going for is much the same.



                          Abstract expressionist artists grew in parallel with each other, each one expressing and coping with the post-war era of existentialism and loneliness. As the economy prospered post-WWII, pop artists grew in parallel as a reflection of the west's new glossy smiling face.



                          I think fashion design is loosely connected to this, because as a product driven largely by consumerism, the desired effective is going to be much more decorative and much less expressive. But, however, like graphic design, many of the designers do more borrowing and get more direct inspiration than they do trying to innovate. This is referring more to the article posted above re: Marc Jacobs, Ghesquire, etc. not really about black scissors or homebrew knock-offs.

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            #14
                            Re: Copying an existing design

                            [quote user="aruva"]

                            An excellent thread. The question I always asked myself is how can one validate the "originality". With all respect to Poell (his name is just used as an example and he is my fav designer) , how can one say that there was no overlocked items existed?.In asia,overlocked stitching is commonly used in plantation bags,and in heavy clothing items used insome parts Now, if he was inspired by that and used the inspiration in his designs, does that qualify as original?. What if "attachment" find inspiration in poell and make thier own fencing jackets?. Or Jun takahashi clothes that are inspired by samurai clothing and ann dem designs ? It is really hard to validate originality and if someone is lucky and gets enou'sgh buzz with a design that was inspired from someone else,by default it may become his original design.




                            Can you differentiate between inspiration and copy?. I have realized inspirationhas become politically perfect verbage for subtle copy in every area.



                            [/quote]



                            I don't think people are talking about that. We are talking about exact copies. What you describe is absolutely acceptable in my book.

                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • laika
                              moderator
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 3787

                              #15
                              bump for this great piece by Zowie Broach.

                              AppleCAppleV by Boudicca

                              The thought of a copy.

                              Is that an idea in itself, a creative process of stealing...?

                              It seems and appears to be common practice to steal. We all do.

                              I mean steal in the way of inspire, appropriation, re-build, deconstruct, reconstruct and yet, there are those times when somehow the boundary is crossed and theft of an idea is no longer inspired by, but a copy of, in a most considered way, to make a pure and intolerable amount of money.

                              It is easy. You wait for another to trip out a thought. Let them work out the idea, watch if it seduces people and then when the item and time is right to copy, you just cut, copy paste, spread fast and furiously to many, sit back and cash in.

                              Memeplexes, large groups of imitators, replicators are now organised by these head copyist. This, when seen working within the capitalist systems we have had built around us, is a genuine fast repeat system, incurring loss to the origin of the idea and wealth to the copyist.

                              Can we protect ideas? Should we protect ideas? Or should in fact we just remain confident as those who have ideas? Ideas that the world is dependant on, a ream and breed of thoughts to revolve and move around, that inspire and revolve from others. The despair is that the ripple from the epicentre of an idea, although long lasting, is rarely felt by its origin.

                              And again that is OK. Ideas are part of our beauty, our humanity.

                              We should be free in how we advance ideas, we should be open in their expression, and we should support more thoroughly the development of ideas in all contexts and maybe focus on that spirit rather than the fear of loss, the fear of bullying from those replicators.

                              It is all about how you sum it up and see clearly that there is no possible fight to win in fighting. The best result is to dis-empower by having another idea. Move fast, keep thoughts rapid and continue to expand the learning ability that we each have.

                              The future for those that a copy is dull and boring. They leave no legacy. They inspire few, they manipulate and replicate, and the truth is we should care little and share no page space, even giving them any significance. The only regret for them is, that if they only understood that they could use their power in a much more creative way, even as a copyist, then maybe we would have a clearer horizon for us all.

                              It is a complex essay, not able to sum up in a few lines that involves planetary concerns, creative support and education for all.

                              Zowie Broach, 2008.
                              ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                              Comment

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