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  • therapysessions
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 101

    Classical music + fashion update

    I figured there might be some classical music listeners here (and maybe some that have no interest in it, which is good) because I wanted to see what everyones opinion is on this subject.

    My girlfriend is a classical musician who's been spearheading a project that merges classical music with fashion, with the ultimate goal of changing the way people view classical music and attract new listeners.

    Being a fashion designer myself and a non-classical music listener has given me an outside perspective on things. The idea really peaked my interest when I started reading a blog by Greg Sandow, a teacher at julliard and a classical music critic and a project runway/fashion fan that wants to do away with formal wear in the genre. (read more here: http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/)



    Your life is the best story! Just start your blog today!


    I recently made a post on my blog about my thoughts: to sum it up. I completely agree with Greg on this matter. That classical musicians need to strip its aristocratic image and be restyled to be more current and assimilate into pop culture. And I've been getting a mixed bag of responses.

    What I like about this subject is that I feel it shows the importance of aesthetics, even in something that is primarily about listening. I was wondering what everyones thoughts on this subject is, not only with classical music but anything else that has been retooled or needs retooling aesthetically. Would a change of wardrobe (and most likely venues) revive classical music?

    And I know this is the complete fashion side of me speaking, but I'd be way more interested in seeing a performer wearing some margiela or commes..I've been pressuring my gf to get those margiela glasses, but then she'd probably need some sort of backlit sheet music :P
  • Faust
    kitsch killer
    • Sep 2006
    • 37852

    #2
    You gotta hit up Casem - I'm sure he has some thoughts on it being a classical composer.

    I am not an expert on classical music by any means, but honestly, I don't think it necessarily needs retooling. It's always demanded a high level of commitment from a listener, and I don't see why it should change to accommodate a wider audience. Not everything is meant for a mass audience. And besides, don't the likes of Joshua Bell sell out concerts anyway?

    My friend is a classically trained pianist. He did not discover rock until he was like 19 (true story) - and when he did, he realized that the beat was the exact thing that connected people with other music on a primal level, and that was missing from classical music. At least that's what he told me. But I'm not a musician, so what do I know.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

    Comment

    • therapysessions
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2007
      • 101

      #3
      Originally posted by Faust View Post
      You gotta hit up Casem - I'm sure he has some thoughts on it being a classical composer.

      I am not an expert on classical music by any means, but honestly, I don't think it necessarily needs retooling. It's always demanded a high level of commitment from a listener, and I don't see why it should change to accommodate a wider audience. Not everything is meant for a mass audience. And besides, don't the likes of Joshua Bell sell out concerts anyway?

      My friend is a classically trained pianist. He did not discover rock until he was like 19 (true story) - and when he did, he realized that the beat was the exact thing that connected people with other music on a primal level, and that was missing from classical music. At least that's what he told me. But I'm not a musician, so what do I know.
      I think that's the big misconception is that classical music has to be separated from popular culture and that its doing fine. But it's been said that classical music makes up only about 2% of the music market, and that the older listeners are dying off faster than the genre is attracting new ones.

      I don't see the aesthetic change as changing classical music at all, at least in the content of the music itself, but I feel if it wasn't to survive and be relevant it has to adapt and reach out to new listeners, I don't think there's anything wrong with creating a larger fan base.

      Comment

      • Faust
        kitsch killer
        • Sep 2006
        • 37852

        #4
        Originally posted by therapysessions View Post
        I think that's the big misconception is that classical music has to be separated from popular culture and that its doing fine. But it's been said that classical music makes up only about 2% of the music market, and that the older listeners are dying off faster than the genre is attracting new ones.

        I don't see the aesthetic change as changing classical music at all, at least in the content of the music itself, but I feel if it wasn't to survive and be relevant it has to adapt and reach out to new listeners, I don't think there's anything wrong with creating a larger fan base.
        I am not saying it has to be separated, I am saying there is nothing wrong with it being and staying separated. Are you looking for some kind of "relevance" of classical music in society?
        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

        Comment

        • therapysessions
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2007
          • 101

          #5
          Originally posted by Faust View Post
          I am not saying it has to be separated, I am saying there is nothing wrong with it being and staying separated. Are you looking for some kind of "relevance" of classical music in society?
          That really is the big issue I've found right now in the classical music community. Being relevant and surviving. Most feel that revival can be made within the pre-established market of listeners and performers, essentially thinking that the renewed interest in classical music can be done by music education and creating new performers.

          But I'm coming from the school of thought that they need to address and get non-listeners interested. I feel that doing so, people interested in playing will work itself out. I'm really going by the nintendo wii business model of creating a new market like they did with non-gamers playing games. And I think what classical music can do to change this is redesigning its image to be more current and accessible.

          Comment

          • Faust
            kitsch killer
            • Sep 2006
            • 37852

            #6
            What kind of relevance? The kind of pop music enjoys? Hardly worth the effort, no? Unless you are in it for profit. Or a kind of a Promethean relevance?
            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

            Comment

            • casem
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 2590

              #7
              Just noticed this thread, I certainly do have some thoughts on this. Don't have a lot of time ATM so I'll add more later.

              First, I'm interested to hear more about what your GF plans on doing to merge fashion and classical music. Aren't they already related? More "intellectual" designers like Raf already use classical music for there shows and certainly fashion designers draw a lot of inspiration from the way musicians dress. Or is she talking about getting classical musicians to dress in "high fashion" like your example of seeing a performer in CDG? I've always wanted to do runway music for a designer just because I think it would be fun, if only I could get a demo to Raf...

              As for the classical needs to go pop debate, I agree classical music does need help. The audience for it is depressingly small and it's frustrating for me as I try to figure out a living as a composer.

              Another thing that irks me is most people's idea of classical music only encompasses composers that have been dead for 100+ years. Whenever I listen to classical radio it's all Romantic or earlier and whenever someone talks about teaching kids/general public to about classical music they always mean about Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart. Sorry but those guys have had their time and support for them is overflowing with old money, the people that really need a break are the ones making music TODAY. That''s why the classical music crowd is old and dying, because the repertoire is old and dying. Most people have no idea there are composers today. When I tell people that's what I do, they think I must write jingles or movie music or songs for pop stars. When I tell them "no, i do contemporary classical, like Reich and Glass but atonal" I might as well be speaking jibberish.

              So yea, I do think classical music needs help. The classical music establishment (especially the symphony) needs to keep the antiques on the shelf and embrace some new music. That being said, there are TONS of living composers making fabulous music. I don't think they need to dumb down their music to make it more accessible to the general public (the last thing we need is more dumb music), but the usual outlets for classical music need to embrace what's new and give living composers a voice. Doing that could potentially invigorate the scene and draw in younger listeners since the music would be relevant and exciting rather than a relic from past-times.
              (end rant)
              music

              Comment

              • Faust
                kitsch killer
                • Sep 2006
                • 37852

                #8
                Hey casem, could you give us some examples of good new classical music? I'd love to check it out. Thanks.
                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                Comment

                • therapysessions
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2007
                  • 101

                  #9
                  Originally posted by casem83 View Post
                  Just noticed this thread, I certainly do have some thoughts on this. Don't have a lot of time ATM so I'll add more later.

                  First, I'm interested to hear more about what your GF plans on doing to merge fashion and classical music. Aren't they already related? More "intellectual" designers like Raf already use classical music for there shows and certainly fashion designers draw a lot of inspiration from the way musicians dress. Or is she talking about getting classical musicians to dress in "high fashion" like your example of seeing a performer in CDG? I've always wanted to do runway music for a designer just because I think it would be fun, if only I could get a demo to Raf...
                  She started the Nouveau Classical Project. Essentially, she gives designers a piece to use as an inspiration point to create clothes for the musicians to wear. We then hold shows with the designers and perform the pieces. The concert series and ideas are still being refined, but the goal is to create a presentation that emphasizes the music rather than being purely a fashion show with classical music, but create the excitement that fashion shows have.

                  I feel the goal here is setting classical music in an event that is exciting to see, rather than just a traditional concert in a traditional venue.

                  Another thing that irks me is most people's idea of classical music only encompasses composers that have been dead for 100+ years. Whenever I listen to classical radio it's all Romantic or earlier and whenever someone talks about teaching kids/general public to about classical music they always mean about Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart. Sorry but those guys have had their time and support for them is overflowing with old money, the people that really need a break are the ones making music TODAY. That''s why the classical music crowd is old and dying, because the repertoire is old and dying. Most people have no idea there are composers today. When I tell people that's what I do, they think I must write jingles or movie music or songs for pop stars. When I tell them "no, i do contemporary classical, like Reich and Glass but atonal" I might as well be speaking jibberish.
                  Totally agree! I mean, I will freely admit I know jack shit about classical music. And can probably name 3 pieces off the top of my head, and probably know the full name of 2 composers.

                  My gf and I discuss this all the time and I basically told her the same thing you're saying. That the reason its fading is that people aren't creating or listening to the new stuff. I mean, imagine if rock or rap had a handful of musicians and everyone else basically did a cover of the same songs over and over. Interest would not last long.

                  So yea, I do think classical music needs help. The classical music establishment (especially the symphony) needs to keep the antiques on the shelf and embrace some new music. That being said, there are TONS of living composers making fabulous music. I don't think they need to dumb down their music to make it more accessible to the general public (the last thing we need is more dumb music), but the usual outlets for classical music need to embrace what's new and give living composers a voice. Doing that could potentially invigorate the scene and draw in younger listeners since the music would be relevant and exciting rather than a relic from past-times.
                  (end rant)
                  Do you know/have you read Greg Sandow's blog? It's one of my favorite things I've been reading recently. He's a teacher at julliard and a classical music critic. He has some interesting ideas on the death of classical music and what he thinks should change.
                  I linked it above but if you missed it



                  I'm certainly wouldn't suggest dumbing down the music at all. And there are definitely a handful of ways we can approach the issue. I just happened to raised the issue of aesthetics because I'm a visual person.

                  Plus I want to see my gf wearing CDG and Margiela on stage. :D

                  Comment

                  • casem
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 2590

                    #10
                    Therapysessions, what your GF is doing sounds really cool, I"ll have to check out the website.

                    Even my knowledge of contemporary composers is limited since they get so little air time, but here are some of my recommendations.
                    For well established living or recently deceased composers:

                    Gyorgi Ligeti (died just a year or so ago).
                    His orchestral works are pure visceral texture. His piano etudes are a bit more acccessible to the average listener because he used some melody and the virtuosity of these pieces is impressive even if you know nothing about music (check out Pierre-Laurent Aimard's recordings of all the etudes). If you like Kubrik's films you'll recognize some of Ligeti's pieces (they were friends).

                    Steve Reich, still alive and composing
                    His more recent works "Proverbs" are really nice and not nearly as minimalist as his early pieces. Other favorites of mine are "New York Counterpoint" "8 lines" and "Nagoya Marimbas" all a far cry from his original more purely minimalist experiments. If you want to go back to his roots, zone out to "Check it Out" and "Piano Phase".

                    Philip Glass, still alive and performing
                    Much of the classical establishment still doesn't really like him, possibly due to the simplicity of some of his work and he's a bit too self-referential. If you don't like repetition, I suggest his string quartets which nobody seems to know. They're really beautiful and only hint at the "Glassisms" that he overuses in other works (ie. arpeggios, additive rhytms). The album Glassworks is also very accessible. If you're hardcore and have a few hours to spare, try to sit through "Music in 12 Parts".

                    Other well established alive or recently dead composers that you'll never hear on the radio include: John Adams, Terry Riley, Lamont Young, John Corigliano...

                    I'll follow up with some lesser-knowns later.
                    music

                    Comment

                    • Faust
                      kitsch killer
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 37852

                      #11
                      Originally posted by therapysessions View Post

                      Totally agree! I mean, I will freely admit I know jack shit about classical music. And can probably name 3 pieces off the top of my head, and probably know the full name of 2 composers.

                      My gf and I discuss this all the time and I basically told her the same thing you're saying. That the reason its fading is that people aren't creating or listening to the new stuff. I mean, imagine if rock or rap had a handful of musicians and everyone else basically did a cover of the same songs over and over. Interest would not last long.
                      I think there is an inherent contradiction here. You are saying that most people (including myself and yourself) know jack about classical music, yet you lament lack of diversity. The entire field is not mined by popular culture. For example, I am sure there are stellar pieces by Bach, much better than Air on G String, but that's the one I know and love.

                      In my opinion classical music is inherently complex, like modernist literature, and therefore not easily adaptable to mass culture - that is its nature. You need a good ear to enjoy complex harmonies - you don't need that to enjoy good beat and catchy repeated words.
                      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                      Comment

                      • casem
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 2590

                        #12
                        Speaking of living composers, here's a list of upcoming events (some musical some otherwise) sent to me from my composition teacher from NYU. I may come into NYC on Oct. 25 to see her performance of Waking in New York, all you NYCers should go!


                        THURSDAY OCTOBER 2 – OPENING RECEPTION A.I.R. GALLERY
                        A.I.R. Gallery: The History Show, work from 1972 to the present, is curated by Kat Griefen and Carey
                        Lovelace. This historic two-part exhibition brings together artworks by over 75 A.I.R. artists. These artworks
                        are diverse in style, approach, material, and processes employed. Feminist content is evident in some works,
                        whereas others are primarily abstract, conceptual, or minimal. This overview underlines the groundbreaking
                        work that the gallery’s individual artists made in a range of new movements, such as environmental works and
                        performance art. The show features the artists’ use of new strategies in their chosen fields and their innovations
                        in the employment of unconventional materials. All mediums are represented: photography, sculpture, painting,
                        performance, videos, sound work, installations, performance, and drawing.

                        Works by: Sheila Manion Artz, Dotty Attie, Nancy Azara, Rachel Bas-Cohain, Susan Bee, Judith
                        Bernstein, Liz Biddle, Maude Boltz, Agnes Denes, Sari Dienes, Daria Dorosh, Mary Beth Edelson, Jessie
                        Nebraska Gifford, Barbara Grinell, Harmony Hammond, Louise Kramer, Pat Lasch, Carolyn Martin,
                        Rosemary Mayer, Louise McCagg, Patsy Norvell, Howardena Pindell, Ann Pachner, Jill Parisi, Beatrice
                        Riese, Barbara Roux, Ursula Schneider, Ann Schaumburger, Barbara Siegel, Sylvia Sleigh, Nancy
                        Storrow, Tenesh Webber, Nancy Wilson-Pajic, Janise Yntema, and Elizabeth Zechel
                        111 Front St, #228, Brooklyn, NY 11201 • 212-255-6651• www.airgallery.org
                        Opening Reception: Thursday October 2, 6-8PM

                        SATURDAY, OCTOBER 4 – 2-4 PM: OP ON SCREEN FESTIVAL
                        The festival of neo-opera and multimedia theater
                        Free and Open to the Public - October 4-25, 2008 – Saturdays 2-4PM
                        New York Public Library Hamilton Fish branch - 415 Houston Street near Avenue D
                        (Subway: F train to Second Avenue stop, walk east 4 blocks or M14D to Houston and Ave D)

                        October 4: Palladio by Ben Neill and Bill Jones, a new digitally created narrative/performance format that fluidly mixes sampled commercials, live action cinematic drama and live music.
                        Palladio asks the question, “In a world where the line between culture and commerce is increasingly blurred, can you really sell out anymore?” Based on the 1998 novel Palladio by New York Times Magazine writer Jonathan Dee, Neill and Jones’ new media performance work tells the story of an unlikely romantic triangle set against the backdrop of the often conflicting worlds of music, art and advertising. Ben Neill, internationally known composer, performer and inventor of the mutantrumpet, a hybrid electro-acoustic instrument, has been a pioneer in the use of interactive computer technologies in live performance. Neill’s music has been recorded on Six Degrees, Universal/Verve, and Astralwerks. Visual artist Bill Jones has exhibited in galleries and museums for over two decades. He is also a noted writer, editor and founder of a number of periodicals including The Independent Film and Video Monthly and ArtByte the Magazine of Digital Culture.

                        October 11: Phoenix Park, composed by David Strickland from a libretto by Ilsa Gilbert, a neo-classic chamber opera setting and one of the last stagings by Tom O’Horgan (whom we know as the creator of the musical Hair!), produced by Downtown Music Productions.
                        October 18: Western technology meets Asian mythology in Jin Hi Kim’s Dong Dong Touching the Moons, a collaboration between Korean, Indian and American artists in the fields of music, dance and multimedia.
                        October 25: Composer Elodie Lauten’s operatic setting of the poetry of Allen Ginsberg, Waking in New York, performed at the 14 Street Y Theater, conducted by Mimi Stern-Wolfe, featuring Mark Duer, baritone and Laura Wolfe, mezzo soprano. Ginsberg's tolerant and all-inclusive vision of the city with its exciting jaggedness and energy is uplifting. Lauten met Ginsberg in 1973 when at 22, she first came to New York.
                        music

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                        • Faust
                          kitsch killer
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 37852

                          #13
                          So, I'm slow, I admit. Peter, should we be separating the image of a musician from music itself for the purpose of this discussion? Cause I'd like to see a classic orchestra decked in Carpe Diem while playing Ride of the Valkyries.
                          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                          Comment

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