A 1,905-page suicide note

[zamb]

thats exactly the point. He didn't give people the chance to meet his arguments, or even listen to him, since he kept it a secret and then left as soon as he presented his thesis. He had already made up his mind without listening to them. Arrogant Bastard.

Heirloom, I find these kind of comments to be unkind, you ask about his Mom, what if in some weird way she were to read SZ and saw your words? do you think its the kind of thing she would like to see about a so she is saddened and grieving for?

Its obvious that the man was as deranged as he was brilliant, its a sad story, a most unfortunate tale, i wish this for no one and I dont think we can fully understand it, so a little compassion, for an obviously unfortunate mind?
It's a rather respectful thing...................after all, he was a human like you and I

[BeauIXI]

well, there are therapists, whose job is to listen and counsel. One of the great things about an institution like the Church is that for some it creates this kind of framework, where the individual sees himself within a group of like minded people within common struggles and issues, it gives a kind of perspective that if another individual is dealing with a situation and finding the strength to cope.............. then I can.

Have you read much Nietzche, Zam?

I know what you mean though, community does create.. Maybe not a rational end for a human life, but at least a seemingly fuller one.

[zamb]

Have you read much Nietzche, Zam?

I know what you mean though, community does create.. Maybe not a rational end for a human life, but at least a seemingly fuller one.

I have read some, and will read more, but you already know I am in an opposite camp to Nietzsche. I found his ideas to be seriously flawed and misinformed, and more of a reaction to the fractured relationship between him and his father.

I dont claim to know all but I certainly know, there is great value and meaning to life............at least for those who are willing to receive it.
But then, I dont have some of the vices that plagues many of my fellow humans. for the most part I am happy at least 95% of the time............

[BeauIXI]

I envy you very much. In this coded world, suffering is almost always resulting from some inner vice or another.

[whitney]

he might not have engaged people enough to pique their interest, and if that is the case, they would not be greatly mourned by his death. and may look at it differently. or not at all. who is he anyways? people feel sad when it comes to death because you're suppose to, if you feel good about death there is something wrong with you, or so thats what is conveyed. no one looks anything other then somber when the mention of a person passing...................with every example there is always an exception or two. but with his, if he did not make that much of an impact that he would catch their attention, or stand out enough to make them interested in asking more--i don't think that they would mourn any more deeply then another innocent bystander that died in some tragic event.

i have to admit heirloom has got a point about him not sharing it with anyone but himself, but then again i've known some pretty nosy people in my life, and sometimes they resort to snooping..

as for church and community. i do not want to touch that yet but one of these days i would love your opinion (completely sincere) on some things zamb..

[zamb]

he might not have engaged people enough to pique their interest, and if that is the case, they would not be greatly mourned by his death. and may look at it differently. or not at all. who is he anyways? people feel sad when it comes to death because you're suppose to, if you feel good about death there is something wrong with you, or so thats what is conveyed. no one looks anything other then somber when the mention of a person passing...................with every example there is always an exception or two. but with his, if he did not make that much of an impact that he would catch their attention, or stand out enough to make them interested in asking more--i don't think that they would mourn any more deeply then another innocent bystander that died in some tragic event.

i have to admit heirloom has got a point about him not sharing it with anyone but himself, but then again i've known some pretty nosy people in my life, and sometimes they resort to snooping..

as for church and community. i do not want to touch that yet but one of these days i would love your opinion (completely sincere) on some things zamb..

My sentiments towards death is not always sad, when my father died I was happy, actually I was praying for his death, not because I hated him, but because I loved him and he had suffered for a long time and I saw death as an end to his suffering.
I also had a 96 year old pastor who had lived a full life and contributed much to this world and when she died I was happy. I felt as sense of joy that here was an example of a woman who had lived and died as how we should, living a full life, contributing much to the world, and leaving with dignity when our time comes.

i've also had young friends who became murderers, and while there was no joy to see them die, in a way I was happy because the people they were terrorizing could now live in peace...........

this world is a complicated place, and there is often no blanket perspective that gives a comprehensive view of a given situation. what i do know though is that life is worth living, and in a free society, with a ton of opportunities, its always a sad thing, when a young physically well person takes their own life.

feel free to ask me whatever you want, you will always get my honest respectful opinion

[Sombre]

I'm quite moved by this story and book. What I'm about to say is radically different from opinions expressed thus far, but this is a scenario so similar to matters I've thought about recently that I feel compelled to respond.

First, let me say that I understand Heisman's point of view. I think the mistake people are making (or the reason for the inability to understand) is assuming that nihilism is characterized by depression. The only essential tenet to nihilism is a rejection of any intrinsic value or meaning to life. One needn't be depressed to reach this conclusion.

Putting aside any possible depression or lunacy (the latter of which I think is an unfair claim), I see this incident as the ultimate nihilist's experiment or demonstration of belief. I've recently had to attend some workshops on psychological issues and suicide, and I thought after every one, "What if this person legitimately no longer wants to be a part of this world?" (as opposed to a cry for help). In such cases I would not stand in the person's way. In fact, I would admire the person's persistence. This is actually the very case I thought of. If there really is no meaning to life, then death is, in itself, not noteworthy. Heisman seemed to have reached that conclusion through careful consideration and research; consequently I have nothing to say against it.

I would like to comment on the irate accusations of selfishness. Heirloom has a point that Heisman was selfish, but it's not surprising since he was a nihilist, and believed that emotions are illusions. Within his ideological framework, I don't see his selfishness as a problem, only a characteristic. If I'm to be extreme, I'd say we're all inherently selfish, so why should it bother us when someone reveals the extent of said selfishness? On another note, isn't wishing he didn't commit suicide and that he had sought counseling a product of our own selfishness and limited scope? If he truly did not want to be part of this world, then letting him leave it seems to be the nobler course of action, sacrificing our own emotions and accepting the grief his passing brings, instead of subjecting him to a meaningless existence.

I really haven't articulated myself as well as I'd have liked to, but I hope I've made some sense. Heisman's conclusion was logical based on his beliefs, which makes his suicide rational (as catastrophically paradoxical as that may seem to some). Perhaps he didn't share his beliefs because he was convinced of their soundness, and didn't want people to try to dissuade him (especially for the wrong reasons). Also, I'm not by any means familiar with statistics or scholarly work on depression and suicide, but if I had to guess I'd say that most suicides aren't planned with as much clarity of thought and efficiency as this particular case was.

I intend to read his book.

[Fade to Black]

i like to think of all my posts on the internet as one long suicide note.

that's interesting perspective sam; I've always seen my internet posts as the opposite.

[airboyair]

http://www.suicidenote.info/

Nobody has the right to judge anybody, negatively or positively. These are the ways of dominating people. When you judge someone you are trying to interfere in his life, which is not your business. A real, authentic man simply allows people to be themselves. - Dharma

[Völuspá]

I have to agree with Sombre and Air (sorry if i misspelled your names). his endeavors were perfectly executed, his points came across without fault, and in the end he stood for what he spoke about, and never faltered to complete his ultimate goal. i wish i could be sentimental and say he should have sought help, or have spoken to loved ones about his tribulations, but the fact is he wanted this, up to his very last action. feeling sorry or sad for him is irrelevant. honestly, i think he's a genius.

[whitney]

once i collect my thoughts i will zamb, :) or i may chicken out..

If I'm to be extreme, I'd say we're all inherently selfish, so why should it bother us when someone reveals the extent of said selfishness? On another note, isn't wishing he didn't commit suicide and that he had sought counseling a product of our own selfishness and limited scope?

i like this.

other then his mom and sister, whom he might owe an explanation of, if their relationship was strong/connected enough--and anyone else who really knew him and love him and would mourn the loss--other then that if he wanted to, why shouldn't he be able to.

personally i think its stupid and i don't believe that theres no reason to live even though i know that life right now, whatever we collect, whatever we partake is only for the moment but once we pass on those thoughts dissipate. however, its only my thoughts.

[Heirloom]

I have to agree with Sombre and Air (sorry if i misspelled your names). his endeavors were perfectly executed, his points came across without fault, and in the end he stood for what he spoke about, and never faltered to complete his ultimate goal. i wish i could be sentimental and say he should have sought help, or have spoken to loved ones about his tribulations, but the fact is he wanted this, up to his very last action. feeling sorry or sad for him is irrelevant. honestly, i think he's a genius.

tell that to his mother. I bet she's real proud!

[Mail-Moth]

tell that to his mother. I bet she's real proud!

Just ask her. You've got no right to speak for her sake.

This thread is so terribly sad.

[Faust]

/\ See post #9 in this thread.

[Heirloom]

oh, so you think his mother would appreciate people saying he's a genius? i doubt that. i really really doubt it. and i have the right to be pissed. it doesn't make me a teenager, and it doesn't make me stupid. why are you even getting involved in this conversation faust if the only thing you contribute with is how stupid you think i am?