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  • zamb
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 5834

    #61
    Originally posted by todestrieb View Post
    Oh please. I'm not one to care much for Nietzsche, but have you people actually read him in any kind of extensive and attentive manner, beyond the pre-assumption of 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-hand remarks regularly imputed to him in the worst form of banality? Remarks that lamentably border on the regurgitative and reductive. Mostly born from a hermeneutical literalness and belligerence than a lateral sensitivity to the slippery nuances of his writing. To what degree he is even a card-carrying "nihilist", or his writings an espousal of "nihilism" (least of all, "pop nihilism" with its sloganistic triteness of "life is meaningless") is open to a whole world of considerable debate. And, to see in his writings proto-fascist tendencies and thereby implicating him for what came after is as bad as blaming Rick Owens for the fashun phenomena of "goth ninja", or to hold religious texts like the Bible or the Qur'an culpable for fundamentalist views, right-wing politics, and terrorism. Have we forgotten that in any reception of an idea, a philosophical idea, say, there is always another side to the dialectical equation? That is, the reader herself. Who reads? Who interprets? Who emphasizes? This is old hat, no?
    are you saying here that when something is written, or spoken even, whatever understanding we get from it, is purely based on our interpretation and not necessarily what the writer/ speaker meant at that given point in time?

    of course things are always open to interpretation, and oftentimes peoples understanding is purely a matter of interpretation. However, I insist on believing that surely someone can write/ speak and the reader/ listener gets exactly what is being conveyed, so its no more a matter of interpretation but a matter of accurate understanding.

    I have seen an increase where people when they dont want to face the unexpected consequences of their statements, seek shelter under the awning of "misinterpretation"................. but my friend, there are some things said and written, that cannot be understood, in any way different from how they are. Both speaker and listener is well aware of this, and if not, we may as well forget the whole business of communication because we couldn't guarantee that what is said by us, would be understood by others, and in such a case, you would have written what you wrote in futility!


    Originally posted by todestrieb View Post

    It's rather unfortunate that Nietzsche, much like Marx, continues to be misunderstood and maligned in the domain of popular imagination. They are rarely read, and if and when they are read at all, most readers have already made up their minds as to what they're reading - "Communist", "Marxist", "Fascist", "Nihilist" - What the fuck does all of that mean anyway
    ?
    By saying this you are implying that you have read them, and have a greater understanding of their ideas, than the people you suggest misunderstands them.

    I personally haven't read a lot of Nietzsche, but have read enough to know he is in a different camp, and shares an opposing worldview than mine, as i have said before, i shall take some time to edify myself in greater detail of his ideas, because whatever little I know know, I already realized he was on the wrong track.
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

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    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      #62
      Originally posted by todestrieb View Post
      Oh please. I'm not one to care much for Nietzsche, but have you people actually read him in any kind of extensive and attentive manner, beyond the pre-assumption of 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-hand remarks regularly imputed to him in the worst form of banality? Remarks that lamentably border on the regurgitative and reductive. Mostly born from a hermeneutical literalness and belligerence than a lateral sensitivity to the slippery nuances of his writing. To what degree he is even a card-carrying "nihilist", or his writings an espousal of "nihilism" (least of all, "pop nihilism" with its sloganistic triteness of "life is meaningless") is open to a whole world of considerable debate. And, to see in his writings proto-fascist tendencies and thereby implicating him for what came after is as bad as blaming Rick Owens for the fashun phenomena of "goth ninja", or to hold religious texts like the Bible or the Qur'an culpable for fundamentalist views, right-wing politics, and terrorism. Have we forgotten that in any reception of an idea, a philosophical idea, say, there is always another side to the dialectical equation? That is, the reader herself. Who reads? Who interprets? Who emphasizes? This is old hat, no?

      It's rather unfortunate that Nietzsche, much like Marx, continues to be misunderstood and maligned in the domain of popular imagination. They are rarely read, and if and when they are read at all, most readers have already made up their minds as to what they're reading - "Communist", "Marxist", "Fascist", "Nihilist" - What the fuck does all of that mean anyway?
      I take it you are referring to me in part. Yes, I have read some of it. And, yes, I am well aware that he has been hijacked by Hitler, the way Marx had been high-jacket by the leaders of the SU (and by the capitalists who equated MArx to those leaders). My remark was in jest - I suppose that did not come across.
      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

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      • Shucks
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2010
        • 3104

        #63
        Originally posted by Heirloom View Post
        we're all intertwined. it isn't just his life. what about his mother?
        ^ this IS the point. no matter what lies behind a suicide, it results in the death of a person and it damages and deeply scars others. the sense of loss and guilt passed on to others is immense.

        it is utter tragedy and i don't understand how anyone with a sound mind can intellectualize about it in a way to fail to see it as such. have we really become this jaded and detached from the world and each other?

        Comment

        • mrbeuys
          Senior Member
          • May 2008
          • 2313

          #64
          Originally posted by Shucks View Post
          have we really become this jaded and detached from the world and each other?
          When it doesn't actually affect us personally, I am afraid the prevailing answer would be 'yes'.
          Going off on a tangent, but this was an interesting view on this topic

          Hi. I like your necklace. - It's actually a rape whistle, but the whistle part fell off.

          Comment

          • Mail-Moth
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2009
            • 1448

            #65
            Originally posted by Shucks View Post
            ^ this IS the point. no matter what lies behind a suicide, it results in the death of a person and it damages and deeply scars others. the sense of loss and guilt passed on to others is immense.

            it is utter tragedy and i don't understand how anyone with a sound mind can intellectualize about it in a way to fail to see it as such. have we really become this jaded and detached from the world and each other?
            What is the purpose of saying it here ? Are we bound to show our feelings on a fucking fashion forum to be considered as human and compassionate ? Come on, show some dignity. This is absurd, and this is obscene.
            I can see a hat, I can see a cat,
            I can see a man with a baseball bat.

            Comment

            • Shucks
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2010
              • 3104

              #66
              Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
              What is the purpose of saying it here ? Are we bound to show our feelings on a fucking fashion forum to be considered as human and compassionate ? Come on, show some dignity. This is absurd, and this is obscene.
              wow.

              i don't really know how to respond to that.

              how is what i said 'absurd' and 'obscene'?

              Comment

              • Mail-Moth
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2009
                • 1448

                #67
                Do I really have to elaborate ? By saying this you're implying that people who don't show some compassion in this thread are "jaded and detached from the world and each other", and that people who do are not. I won't go further, I think it's clear enough.
                I can see a hat, I can see a cat,
                I can see a man with a baseball bat.

                Comment

                • Völuspá
                  Junior Member
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 14

                  #68
                  I don't know if Shucks was specifically stating that people on this site are jaded, I'd like to think Shucks was speaking in general. But if in fact that statement was meant for this site specifically, that in itself could be jaded. I think people should take the time out to read at least some of the book before analyzing and trying to decrepit a "true meaning". I have only read a handful of pages, and yes it can be tedious at times, but I feel it to be sort of an obligation to keep reading to try and understand. I just really hope this thread doesn't turn into two opposing factions trying to prove single-handed points.

                  Comment

                  • Shucks
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2010
                    • 3104

                    #69
                    my point - and i stand firmly by it - is that a suicide is something which - regardless of its causes - doesn't end suffering, rather it spreads it further. this should be obvious to everybody, but when people begin elaborating on how impressed they are by the way a suicide is carried out, then i feel something is wrong.

                    this is not directed at you personally moth, but the only obscenity to me here, is a certain unawareness or disregard for the level of pain caused when someone takes their own life. i am certainly not suggesting there need to be sentimental outpourings of grief and sympathy in this thread. but anyone who decides to discuss suicide (fashion forum or not) needs to show some goddamn respect.

                    Comment

                    • Fade to Black
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 5340

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
                      Do I really have to elaborate ? By saying this you're implying that people who don't show some compassion in this thread are "jaded and detached from the world and each other", and that people who do are not. I won't go further, I think it's clear enough.
                      I am a firm believer in compassion and empathy, but alas I must agree with the Moth here. I have come to terms with the fact that the internet is not a place for human warmth, nor does it necessarily need to be so, either which way, and it is perhaps a result of its design, for better or worse. It is what it is, if anything it is even more of an urgent call for showing love when it's tangible and close by, not separated through a screen device.
                      www.matthewhk.net

                      let me show you a few thangs

                      Comment

                      • Mail-Moth
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 1448

                        #71
                        Shucks, I don't see the thing as monolithic as you do. There's death, and there's the anecdotic aspect of it. Focusing on the latter is sometimes - quite often in fact - a way to deal with the brutal, unacceptable nature of the first, whatever the causes, suicide, accident or disease.
                        I can see a hat, I can see a cat,
                        I can see a man with a baseball bat.

                        Comment

                        • Shucks
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2010
                          • 3104

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
                          ShucksThere's death, and there's the anecdotic aspect of it.
                          sure, fine. but it is also true that people with whom you communicate may - without your knowledge - possibly have a much more intimate and distraught relationship with the issue and may not be in a position to intellectualize about it, nor to appreciate others doing so in an off-handed and flippant manner. this is what needs to be respected. i don't think i have illusions about the human warmth of the net, but i'm not jaded and i do believe in common courtesy.

                          but please, don't let me derail the thread. i'm done.

                          Comment

                          • Mail-Moth
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 1448

                            #73
                            Back to the topic then. Just finished reading the last chapter. I think that sums it all. If some other people are willing to do the same I'll be happy to discuss it.
                            I can see a hat, I can see a cat,
                            I can see a man with a baseball bat.

                            Comment

                            • christianef
                              Senior Member
                              • Feb 2009
                              • 747

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Shucks View Post
                              sure, fine. but it is also true that people with whom you communicate may - without your knowledge - possibly have a much more intimate and distraught relationship with the issue and may not be in a position to intellectualize about it, nor to appreciate others doing so in an off-handed and flippant manner. this is what needs to be respected. i don't think i have illusions about the human warmth of the net, but i'm not jaded and i do believe in common courtesy.

                              but please, don't let me derail the thread. i'm done.
                              true though i guess any regard of this would kind of spoil the whole 1900 page note essentially written to prove the contrary. im sure he considered the impact this would have on others, but hello did someone spike your drink with socrates hemlock the kid thinks he`s a philosopher.

                              Comment

                              • galia
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2009
                                • 1719

                                #75
                                I agree that the internet is no place for human warmth, since the latter is usually expressed through horrifying glittery .gif-s
                                God forbid that ever happens here...

                                However, and speaking from very close personnal experience, I can have nothing but compassion and sadness for suicidees. I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it personally can fully understand the level of pain involved in losing one's innate, and in some ways I would say animal, will to live. I've had a fairly good insight into such a mind, but even though I understand it theoretically, I don't know what it feels like to have a part of your self that wants to kill you. I know for a fact that is it excruciatingly painful and extremely scary for the person who is to attempt suicide, and whether they are successful or not in the end is irrelevant.
                                My sentiment is that if someone does that, it's because there is nothing else they can do, and who are we to condemn that. You know me, Heirloom, please try to understand what I am saying. It is an act that is in some ways selfish, of course, especially when sen from the outside. But we are all born alone and we will all die alone, and some people can bear less than others, so wile I don't think there are thing that are unjudgeable (perish the thought), I think compassion should always come first, especially when it is hard. What is the value of it if it is easy anyway...

                                Still, from reading of this specific story, I can't help but feeling that it smells strongly of a perverse kind of "fin de siècle". Which is why I feel it eerily significant that the book should be some 1900 pages long. But then maybe that's just the symbolist in me...
                                Last edited by galia; 10-08-2010, 05:25 AM.

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