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  • Nomadic Planet
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 229

    Originally posted by TriggerDiscipline View Post
    actually you havent specifically said what is lux about ccp?
    everyone here is comparing rolls royces with artisanally reconstructed vintage porches or something like that.
    Lux about CCP = rarity + craftsmanship + complexity (of the concept, the references, the intention behind the clothes, which is way more than just dressing someone => this is the "avant-garde" aspect of it) + materials (fabrics, leathers, etc.) + price.

    this equation = lux in general, can be applied to any brand. (and I'm leaving out of the equation distribution but it could be added too)

    The "imperfect" aesthetics is just an outcome that sets it appart from traditional luxury, that favors an ideal of perfection, balance and harmony. but then we would be discussing a different topic which would be on the different conceptions of the ideal of beauty. The italian conception that aspirers to symmetry and balance vs a French conception of "chic" which is a play on the codes with a little twist towards unbalance.

    "Artisanal" brands are an interesting counterpoint that flourish when lux becomes global and "industrial scale".

    EDIT: isn't Porsche (vintage or not) a lux brand originally? ;)

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      Have to side with trigger on this one. I think what's happening is that Trigger is speaking in commonly accepted aesthetic terms, while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.

      Also, I have never even remotely seen LUC as hobo chic. Not sure what makes you think so, Nomad.

      What's happening with Vetements v. say Carpe Diem are very different things. If you were head to toe CDiem, you would never say it's homeless chic. It was distressed, but never tattered. It fit brilliantly and the materials were high end. It was arte povera, indeed. Vetements / Balenciage is usurping the lower middle-class AESTHETIC, whereas no one in an immigrant neighborhood would ever look like what CDiem produced (distressed leather and cashmere).

      Here is my article on Balenciaga as a better explanation.

      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • Ahimsa
        Vegan Police
        • Sep 2011
        • 1879

        I agree with Trigger as well on the luxury vs. artisanal. I used to work for what would be considered a "luxury" brand. Riri satin zippers, lining was always silk charmeuse or cashmere, python tote bags, etc.
        Luxury to me is something that screams at you at how expensive it is or literally feels luxurious. CCP doesn't look expensive to a layman and isn't particularly comfortable.
        Like if Rick designed a hotel, and the bed was on a concrete slab, I'm not so sure I would call that luxury.
        In terms of cars, if it doesn't have the full monty of heated leather seats, individual air condition control, etc. I wouldn't put it in the luxury category.
        StyleZeitgeist Magazine | Store

        Comment

        • TriggerDiscipline
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2013
          • 859

          Originally posted by Faust View Post
          while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.
          This is true of what you say of what he says, but I do not think scarcity is a determining factor either.

          ""Artisanal" brands are an interesting counterpoint that flourish when lux becomes global and "industrial..."


          This is tough to argue because you are describing exactly what I just said I do not think it is, which is that countermovement, i mean you can take it or leave it like i said, i do not think we will agree here, but in terms of quality, i have had every single ccp thing i have owned to this day break somehow, this is not an indication of quality which in the case of luxury products it should be an indicator.edit:(GRANTED THIS IS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE) This does not mean its bad, but it is more experimental in terms of both execution and concept rather than luxury, its clothing for designers, its clothing for people who make clothing, but it is not luxury to me, just a proof of concept.


          on the other end Ahmisa describes a Rick Hotel, but the reality is out of the things described here the closest thing to luxury i can think of is actually rick owens, despite leaning more on the designer clothing side, it is a brand that offers luxury with the hun line, and it offers luxury on the runway, just it happens to be alternative.
          Last edited by TriggerDiscipline; 07-08-2019, 09:25 PM.
          Originally posted by unwashed
          Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
          Originally posted by Ahimsa
          I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

          Comment

          • zamb
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2006
            • 5834

            Originally posted by Ahimsa View Post
            I agree with Trigger as well on the luxury vs. artisanal. I used to work for what would be considered a "luxury" brand. Riri satin zippers, lining was always silk charmeuse or cashmere, python tote bags, etc.
            Luxury to me is something that screams at you at how expensive it is or literally feels luxurious. CCP doesn't look expensive to a layman and isn't particularly comfortable.
            Like if Rick designed a hotel, and the bed was on a concrete slab, I'm not so sure I would call that luxury.
            In terms of cars, if it doesn't have the full monty of heated leather seats, individual air condition control, etc. I wouldn't put it in the luxury category.

            because you are trigger are using luxury in the sense of comfort and convenience and an heightened attention to those things.
            Luxury can also be used in the sense of ones ability to do as one pleases and not be affected by the demands of society, because one is economically and financially able to make that choice

            I met a man in Canada last year, he only wears shorts, he owns Reuters. owns one if the biggest art collections in the world and one of the wealthiest man in the world. He said he wore suits so much through to his 40's, he decided he's never wear another suit again. Regardless of the meeting and who it is, he is in shorts and tee, because he has the ultimate luxury, to do as he wishes without answering to anyone.
            With the Customer of a lot of Artisanal brands, they wear it because they can, they have choices and do not have to bend to the demands of society...……..

            Ahimsa

            On the subject of Cars, some of the most expensive have no air conditioning, have manually rolled windows and don't even have cup holders. I guess you could consider a limo, luxury, but what is a Ferrari or a Lambo?
            cars that are performance cars, luxury sport that aren't built for comfort?

            I guess CCP or some artisanal brands would be comparable
            “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
            .................................................. .......................


            Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

            Comment

            • Ahimsa
              Vegan Police
              • Sep 2011
              • 1879

              Trigger - in terms of Rick, to me he's like an amalgamation. Say a concrete bed, but with fur all over it...is luxuriously artisanal? But yes, he definitely makes luxury items. Like I wouldn't put a Geobasket in this category, except when it's say red patent python it becomes luxury due to adding non-essentials for opulence's sake. When he uses YKK zips though on anything it seems to strip away the feeling of luxury because suddenly it's using a same component as an L.L.Bean backpack.


              Zam - I'm in the mind of, owning a very expensive car is a luxury in and of itself, but does not necessitate that the car itself as a luxury item. Lambos and Ferraris without cupholders/electric windows is stripping the car of all of its non-essentials (I feel luxury is just that - non-essentials), and therefore turns it into a utilitarian vehicle in the sense of serving the singular purpose of going fast - sort of like if someone made a mink coat without lining or pockets.
              To diss on Maserati while I have the opportunity to talk cars (I have no idea your opinion on them)...they may look aesthetically pleasing and be absurdly expensive, but they're still made by Fiat and not at all a quality car in terms of actual construction or materials at the price point. It's like the Vetements hoodie of expensive cars - just an overpriced poly-blend with good marketing.
              StyleZeitgeist Magazine | Store

              Comment

              • TriggerDiscipline
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2013
                • 859

                Originally posted by Ahimsa View Post
                Trigger - in terms of Rick, When he uses YKK zips though on anything it seems to strip away the feeling of luxury because suddenly it's using a same component as an L.L.Bean backpack.
                Right this is why I said the closest thing to luxury, not pure lux, I mean idk I see how people can be triggered if you strip away something like that from someone who thinks they are copping into lux when it may or not be, so people will be quick to justify their dollars spent imho.

                this is ok.

                But in my experience I have a very strange view on how things are actually, I think there has been a lot of campaigns to make artisanal clothing sort of be what its become but a lot of it is just marketing imho.... take it or leave it folks its just a random internet comment
                Originally posted by unwashed
                Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
                Originally posted by Ahimsa
                I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

                Comment

                • ahn
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2012
                  • 293

                  Originally posted by Nickefuge View Post
                  If this was a streetwear brand called "HOMMELE$$", everyone would be freaking out.
                  This reminds me of how the brand DI$SCOUNT UNIVER$E came to be named - out of a falling out between the owners and the blogger LUXIRARE.
                  some do it fast, some do it better in smaller amounts.

                  Comment

                  • zamb
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 5834

                    Originally posted by Ahimsa View Post


                    Zam - .
                    To diss on Maserati while I have the opportunity to talk cars (I have no idea your opinion on them)...they may look aesthetically pleasing and be absurdly expensive, but they're still made by Fiat and not at all a quality car in terms of actual construction or materials at the price point. It's like the Vetements hoodie of expensive cars - just an overpriced poly-blend with good marketing.
                    Oh I cannot stand them, and wouldn't want one even if its free.
                    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                    .................................................. .......................


                    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                    Comment

                    • Nomadic Planet
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 229

                      Originally posted by Faust View Post
                      Have to side with trigger on this one. I think what's happening is that Trigger is speaking in commonly accepted aesthetic terms, while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.

                      Also, I have never even remotely seen LUC as hobo chic. Not sure what makes you think so, Nomad.

                      What's happening with Vetements v. say Carpe Diem are very different things. If you were head to toe CDiem, you would never say it's homeless chic. It was distressed, but never tattered. It fit brilliantly and the materials were high end. It was arte povera, indeed. Vetements / Balenciage is usurping the lower middle-class AESTHETIC, whereas no one in an immigrant neighborhood would ever look like what CDiem produced (distressed leather and cashmere).

                      Here is my article on Balenciaga as a better explanation.

                      https://www.sz-mag.com/news/2018/05/...irresponsible/
                      it's a fine line between everything.

                      the fact I mentally associated LUC to hobo chic came - ironically - probably from here (by here I mean SZ), either I read a comment some years ago, or when discussing with BSR, which used to be a big contributor here and is a friend and former colleague from work. I'm not even sure it was actually about LUC or a similar brand. But the comment was something along the lines of "we're spending thousands of € in these brands to end up looking like hobos". Also coming from my own experience: I once took a pair of A1923 sneakers to a (high end)cobbler here in Paris to have them Vibrammed and the guy was puzzled by the fact I did want to spend 70€ on what he thought were a pair of "thrashed converse" (and those were his actual words).

                      So yes the distressing, the raw aesthetics the uneven tanning... and I'm not talking just about LUC, it was one the names that came top of mind, but if you look at reinhart plank for instance, the holes, the burned hats, etc.

                      Yes I'm bunching many different brands under a same vague generalization, but that is what you comes across when you browse across all the retailers specialized on these -similar- brands (PNP, Archive SF, Darklands, etc.)

                      I understand Trigger separates lux and artisanal, and that is probably something obvious for people like you guys working in the industry of fashion , but I see it from outside, and I can't avoid thinking it's also luxury, but a different kind (which I personally enjoy much).

                      it cost a ton, it's rare, it's refined, and the very fact it references Arte Povera should be self explanatory on how Lux these things are. Luxury is about social distinction, and social distinctions work not only on material stuff, but also culture (Bourdieu anyone ?). Knowledge and culture are things that set appart from the new rich, and the very fact of knowing what arte povera is should be enough proof of it ;)

                      Comment

                      • Nomadic Planet
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2012
                        • 229

                        again, I'm seeing all these evolutions from outside, as I don't work in the fashion industry, but to me Vetements /Balenciaga are the other side of the same story. The Avant-gardes explored 10-20 years ago an alternative notion of luxury, and anti-bourgeois luxury (from which spaces like SZ emerged), and with the booming of capitalism you get a mass market version of it, which relies on the Aesthetics of lower middle class. (because that is "transgressive"... and that sells because it's cool, in a world where transgression and rebellion are less and less actual, and more and more a marketing / branding dimension).

                        I'm not sure this will be a very popular opinion around here, but this is how I see things in the grand scheme of cultural evolution.

                        Comment

                        • TriggerDiscipline
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 859

                          Originally posted by Nomadic Planet View Post
                          Knowledge and culture are things that set appart from the new rich, and the very fact of knowing what arte povera is should be enough proof of it ;)


                          the new rich wear this clothes more than they wear off white and balenciaga imo, atleast the trend was active for 3-4 years in this manner, marc le bihan comes off as one of these brands. . .
                          Originally posted by unwashed
                          Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
                          Originally posted by Ahimsa
                          I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

                          Comment

                          • Ivanpedersen
                            Banned
                            • Sep 2019
                            • 1

                            I thought the best fashion like Nike shoes with denim jeans and a Augusta Sportswear 352 Accelerate Jersey that is very awesome thought I have and the jersey idea I had seen at ustradeEnt ;)

                            Comment

                            • TriggerDiscipline
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2013
                              • 859

                              Originally posted by Ivanpedersen View Post
                              I thought the best fashion like Nike shoes with denim jeans and a Augusta Sportswear 352 Accelerate Jersey that is very awesome thought I have and the jersey idea I had seen at ustradeEnt ;)
                              Yes AUGUSTA 
                              Originally posted by unwashed
                              Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
                              Originally posted by Ahimsa
                              I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

                              Comment

                              • Nickefuge
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2014
                                • 860

                                Is this where Jun Takahashi got the idea for the Undercover lookbook photography from?

                                "The only rule is don't be boring and dress cute wherever you go. Life is too short to blend in."
                                -Paris Hilton

                                Comment

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