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Thread: random fashion thoughts

  1. #4901
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickefuge View Post
    Does anybody know when Balenciaga will present their garbs?
    Really excited for more ridiculously priced ironic working-class appreciation.
    Why, Vetements at a McDonalds was not enough for you?
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  2. #4902

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerDiscipline View Post
    sure, but by traditional definition its not luxury imho
    although you could argue that it is, its entirely up to how you want to see it.

    to me ccp is not luxury, artisanalwear is not luxury to me, perhaps you could argue dressing in a very inconvenient way is a sign of wealth but that does not make it luxury imho (take a woman wearing a marc le bihan dress as an example)
    I really want to buy your opinion but I'm really struggling to... how can CCP not be luxury , with the huge amount of technicity, jackets and footwear costing more than most people monthly income... cmon man...
    it is a different version of luxury. Yes, initially luxury was about perfection, like Hermès, but with the evolution of society, the inflation and saturation of options in the market, the ambivalence of what really makes the value of a garment (are LV bags at 400€ really luxury???) etc., the value of luxury progressively moves into the immaterial dimension: rarity, concept, uniqueness of each piece, etc. (to the sad point where a Vêtement hoodie or tee can be seen as luxury, not for the item itself, but for the idea it carries)

    CCP is the epitome of luxury in the sense that it's a brand that can afford the luxury to not give a fuck about perfection.

    Artisanal brands are all about that too. LUC sweaters at 800€, etc. Luxury is not dissociable from price. Price is obviously not the only factor that qualifies it as luxury, but could luxury be really luxury if it cost ... an affordable price ??? (obv not)

  3. #4903

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickefuge View Post
    Does anybody know when Balenciaga will present their garbs?
    Really excited for more ridiculously priced ironic working-class appreciation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Why, Vetements at a McDonalds was not enough for you?
    is there a legitimate way (and an unlegitimate way) to do "working-class / poor" aesthetics in luxury?
    Because I don't see brands like LUC get roasted because they do hobo aesthetics.

    or this new brand called KLOSHAR, which in French literally means "homeless person" (correct spelling "clochard") picked up by Wolfensson, PNP; ArchiveSF, among others...

    I got nothing against the artisanal LUC (or similar brand) aesthetics - it's even rather my thing obvs otherwise I wouldn't be hanging around this forum - but I have to confess seeing a brand named KLOSHAR does make me feel uncomfortable, like it's really reaching the limits of the ethically acceptable... is that homelessness appreciation? Ironic homelessness appreciation? literal homelessness appreciation? what's the point of calling a "luxury" brand literally "hobo" ?

    EDIT: unless "kloshar" really means something else in another language which I ignore, my first reaction, when seeing the aesthetics is to think they made a play on the french word "clochard"
    Last edited by Nomadic Planet; 07-07-2019 at 03:04 PM.

  4. #4904

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomadic Planet View Post
    I really want to buy your opinion but I'm really struggling to... how can CCP not be luxury , with the huge amount of technicity, jackets and footwear costing more than most people monthly income... cmon man...
    it is a different version of luxury. Yes, initially luxury was about perfection, like Hermès, but with the evolution of society, the inflation and saturation of options in the market, the ambivalence of what really makes the value of a garment (are LV bags at 400€ really luxury???) etc., the value of luxury progressively moves into the immaterial dimension: rarity, concept, uniqueness of each piece, etc. (to the sad point where a Vêtement hoodie or tee can be seen as luxury, not for the item itself, but for the idea it carries)

    CCP is the epitome of luxury in the sense that it's a brand that can afford the luxury to not give a fuck about perfection.

    Artisanal brands are all about that too. LUC sweaters at 800€, etc. Luxury is not dissociable from price. Price is obviously not the only factor that qualifies it as luxury, but could luxury be really luxury if it cost ... an affordable price ??? (obv not)
    idk man i guess agree to disagree, I dont see price as an indication of anything, i dont think deconstruction is luxury, i dont see *imperfections* as a luxury, not even as a countermovement to what was going on in the 2000s.

    you can say it is and accept that, but to me its just designer clothing
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  5. #4905

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    actually you havent specifically said what is lux about ccp?

    everyone here is comparing rolls royces with artisanally reconstructed vintage porches or something like that.


    also loewe could be considered *luxury workwear*
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
    Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  6. #4906

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    Personally, when thinking about this whole topic, I make this differentiation between luxurious and artisanal products: is an item made the best way possible without being "extra" or is it a fabulous, extravagant version of an item that could’ve been made in a simpler way? The first one, to me, falls into the realms of artisanal clothing while the latter is definitely luxury. Of course the borders between the two are fluid.

    @Nomadic Planet: Naming your brand KLOSHAR is a disrespectful dick move, no question about that. If this was a streetwear brand called "HOMMELE$$", everyone would be freaking out. But hey, it’s niche and expensive, so I guess the backlash within the rich eccentric community will be minimal.

    The line between dystopian/nomadic aesthetics and the homeless look is thin, but seeing as most homeless people wear regular clothes (sweatshirts, jeans, sneakers) rather than layeres upon layers of torn and draped fabric, the homeless image brands like LUC kind of emulate are from another century – this is why KLOSHAR would be unproblematic if it had another name (I mean their hats do look like Horisaki or Reinhard Plank after all).

    Vetements and Balenciaga copy the "poor man’s" look of our times, that’s why they’re problematic. Especially Vetements, who are not even doing a proper collection but rather a showcase of different cosplays …
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  7. #4907

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickefuge View Post
    the homeless image brands like LUC …
    I can assure you this is not the intention whatsoever


    putting all these brands under the artisanal povera box and bunching them all together really detracts from the individual intent of each brand
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
    Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  8. #4908

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerDiscipline View Post
    actually you havent specifically said what is lux about ccp?
    everyone here is comparing rolls royces with artisanally reconstructed vintage porches or something like that.
    Lux about CCP = rarity + craftsmanship + complexity (of the concept, the references, the intention behind the clothes, which is way more than just dressing someone => this is the "avant-garde" aspect of it) + materials (fabrics, leathers, etc.) + price.

    this equation = lux in general, can be applied to any brand. (and I'm leaving out of the equation distribution but it could be added too)

    The "imperfect" aesthetics is just an outcome that sets it appart from traditional luxury, that favors an ideal of perfection, balance and harmony. but then we would be discussing a different topic which would be on the different conceptions of the ideal of beauty. The italian conception that aspirers to symmetry and balance vs a French conception of "chic" which is a play on the codes with a little twist towards unbalance.

    "Artisanal" brands are an interesting counterpoint that flourish when lux becomes global and "industrial scale".

    EDIT: isn't Porsche (vintage or not) a lux brand originally? ;)

  9. #4909
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Have to side with trigger on this one. I think what's happening is that Trigger is speaking in commonly accepted aesthetic terms, while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.

    Also, I have never even remotely seen LUC as hobo chic. Not sure what makes you think so, Nomad.

    What's happening with Vetements v. say Carpe Diem are very different things. If you were head to toe CDiem, you would never say it's homeless chic. It was distressed, but never tattered. It fit brilliantly and the materials were high end. It was arte povera, indeed. Vetements / Balenciage is usurping the lower middle-class AESTHETIC, whereas no one in an immigrant neighborhood would ever look like what CDiem produced (distressed leather and cashmere).

    Here is my article on Balenciaga as a better explanation.

    https://www.sz-mag.com/news/2018/05/...irresponsible/
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  10. #4910

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    I agree with Trigger as well on the luxury vs. artisanal. I used to work for what would be considered a "luxury" brand. Riri satin zippers, lining was always silk charmeuse or cashmere, python tote bags, etc.
    Luxury to me is something that screams at you at how expensive it is or literally feels luxurious. CCP doesn't look expensive to a layman and isn't particularly comfortable.
    Like if Rick designed a hotel, and the bed was on a concrete slab, I'm not so sure I would call that luxury.
    In terms of cars, if it doesn't have the full monty of heated leather seats, individual air condition control, etc. I wouldn't put it in the luxury category.

  11. #4911

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.
    This is true of what you say of what he says, but I do not think scarcity is a determining factor either.

    ""Artisanal" brands are an interesting counterpoint that flourish when lux becomes global and "industrial..."


    This is tough to argue because you are describing exactly what I just said I do not think it is, which is that countermovement, i mean you can take it or leave it like i said, i do not think we will agree here, but in terms of quality, i have had every single ccp thing i have owned to this day break somehow, this is not an indication of quality which in the case of luxury products it should be an indicator.edit:(GRANTED THIS IS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE) This does not mean its bad, but it is more experimental in terms of both execution and concept rather than luxury, its clothing for designers, its clothing for people who make clothing, but it is not luxury to me, just a proof of concept.


    on the other end Ahmisa describes a Rick Hotel, but the reality is out of the things described here the closest thing to luxury i can think of is actually rick owens, despite leaning more on the designer clothing side, it is a brand that offers luxury with the hun line, and it offers luxury on the runway, just it happens to be alternative.
    Last edited by TriggerDiscipline; 07-08-2019 at 09:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
    Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  12. #4912

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I agree with Trigger as well on the luxury vs. artisanal. I used to work for what would be considered a "luxury" brand. Riri satin zippers, lining was always silk charmeuse or cashmere, python tote bags, etc.
    Luxury to me is something that screams at you at how expensive it is or literally feels luxurious. CCP doesn't look expensive to a layman and isn't particularly comfortable.
    Like if Rick designed a hotel, and the bed was on a concrete slab, I'm not so sure I would call that luxury.
    In terms of cars, if it doesn't have the full monty of heated leather seats, individual air condition control, etc. I wouldn't put it in the luxury category.

    because you are trigger are using luxury in the sense of comfort and convenience and an heightened attention to those things.
    Luxury can also be used in the sense of ones ability to do as one pleases and not be affected by the demands of society, because one is economically and financially able to make that choice

    I met a man in Canada last year, he only wears shorts, he owns Reuters. owns one if the biggest art collections in the world and one of the wealthiest man in the world. He said he wore suits so much through to his 40's, he decided he's never wear another suit again. Regardless of the meeting and who it is, he is in shorts and tee, because he has the ultimate luxury, to do as he wishes without answering to anyone.
    With the Customer of a lot of Artisanal brands, they wear it because they can, they have choices and do not have to bend to the demands of society...……..

    Ahimsa

    On the subject of Cars, some of the most expensive have no air conditioning, have manually rolled windows and don't even have cup holders. I guess you could consider a limo, luxury, but what is a Ferrari or a Lambo?
    cars that are performance cars, luxury sport that aren't built for comfort?

    I guess CCP or some artisanal brands would be comparable
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
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  13. #4913

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    Trigger - in terms of Rick, to me he's like an amalgamation. Say a concrete bed, but with fur all over it...is luxuriously artisanal? But yes, he definitely makes luxury items. Like I wouldn't put a Geobasket in this category, except when it's say red patent python it becomes luxury due to adding non-essentials for opulence's sake. When he uses YKK zips though on anything it seems to strip away the feeling of luxury because suddenly it's using a same component as an L.L.Bean backpack.


    Zam - I'm in the mind of, owning a very expensive car is a luxury in and of itself, but does not necessitate that the car itself as a luxury item. Lambos and Ferraris without cupholders/electric windows is stripping the car of all of its non-essentials (I feel luxury is just that - non-essentials), and therefore turns it into a utilitarian vehicle in the sense of serving the singular purpose of going fast - sort of like if someone made a mink coat without lining or pockets.
    To diss on Maserati while I have the opportunity to talk cars (I have no idea your opinion on them)...they may look aesthetically pleasing and be absurdly expensive, but they're still made by Fiat and not at all a quality car in terms of actual construction or materials at the price point. It's like the Vetements hoodie of expensive cars - just an overpriced poly-blend with good marketing.

  14. #4914

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    Trigger - in terms of Rick, When he uses YKK zips though on anything it seems to strip away the feeling of luxury because suddenly it's using a same component as an L.L.Bean backpack.
    Right this is why I said the closest thing to luxury, not pure lux, I mean idk I see how people can be triggered if you strip away something like that from someone who thinks they are copping into lux when it may or not be, so people will be quick to justify their dollars spent imho.

    this is ok.

    But in my experience I have a very strange view on how things are actually, I think there has been a lot of campaigns to make artisanal clothing sort of be what its become but a lot of it is just marketing imho.... take it or leave it folks its just a random internet comment
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
    Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  15. #4915

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickefuge View Post
    If this was a streetwear brand called "HOMMELE$$", everyone would be freaking out.
    This reminds me of how the brand DI$SCOUNT UNIVER$E came to be named - out of a falling out between the owners and the blogger LUXIRARE.
    some do it fast, some do it better in smaller amounts.

  16. #4916

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post


    Zam - .
    To diss on Maserati while I have the opportunity to talk cars (I have no idea your opinion on them)...they may look aesthetically pleasing and be absurdly expensive, but they're still made by Fiat and not at all a quality car in terms of actual construction or materials at the price point. It's like the Vetements hoodie of expensive cars - just an overpriced poly-blend with good marketing.
    Oh I cannot stand them, and wouldn't want one even if its free.
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

  17. #4917

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Have to side with trigger on this one. I think what's happening is that Trigger is speaking in commonly accepted aesthetic terms, while Nomad is speaking in commonly accepted economic terms.

    Also, I have never even remotely seen LUC as hobo chic. Not sure what makes you think so, Nomad.

    What's happening with Vetements v. say Carpe Diem are very different things. If you were head to toe CDiem, you would never say it's homeless chic. It was distressed, but never tattered. It fit brilliantly and the materials were high end. It was arte povera, indeed. Vetements / Balenciage is usurping the lower middle-class AESTHETIC, whereas no one in an immigrant neighborhood would ever look like what CDiem produced (distressed leather and cashmere).

    Here is my article on Balenciaga as a better explanation.

    https://www.sz-mag.com/news/2018/05/...irresponsible/
    it's a fine line between everything.

    the fact I mentally associated LUC to hobo chic came - ironically - probably from here (by here I mean SZ), either I read a comment some years ago, or when discussing with BSR, which used to be a big contributor here and is a friend and former colleague from work. I'm not even sure it was actually about LUC or a similar brand. But the comment was something along the lines of "we're spending thousands of € in these brands to end up looking like hobos". Also coming from my own experience: I once took a pair of A1923 sneakers to a (high end)cobbler here in Paris to have them Vibrammed and the guy was puzzled by the fact I did want to spend 70€ on what he thought were a pair of "thrashed converse" (and those were his actual words).

    So yes the distressing, the raw aesthetics the uneven tanning... and I'm not talking just about LUC, it was one the names that came top of mind, but if you look at reinhart plank for instance, the holes, the burned hats, etc.

    Yes I'm bunching many different brands under a same vague generalization, but that is what you comes across when you browse across all the retailers specialized on these -similar- brands (PNP, Archive SF, Darklands, etc.)

    I understand Trigger separates lux and artisanal, and that is probably something obvious for people like you guys working in the industry of fashion , but I see it from outside, and I can't avoid thinking it's also luxury, but a different kind (which I personally enjoy much).

    it cost a ton, it's rare, it's refined, and the very fact it references Arte Povera should be self explanatory on how Lux these things are. Luxury is about social distinction, and social distinctions work not only on material stuff, but also culture (Bourdieu anyone ?). Knowledge and culture are things that set appart from the new rich, and the very fact of knowing what arte povera is should be enough proof of it ;)

  18. #4918

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    again, I'm seeing all these evolutions from outside, as I don't work in the fashion industry, but to me Vetements /Balenciaga are the other side of the same story. The Avant-gardes explored 10-20 years ago an alternative notion of luxury, and anti-bourgeois luxury (from which spaces like SZ emerged), and with the booming of capitalism you get a mass market version of it, which relies on the Aesthetics of lower middle class. (because that is "transgressive"... and that sells because it's cool, in a world where transgression and rebellion are less and less actual, and more and more a marketing / branding dimension).

    I'm not sure this will be a very popular opinion around here, but this is how I see things in the grand scheme of cultural evolution.

  19. #4919

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomadic Planet View Post
    Knowledge and culture are things that set appart from the new rich, and the very fact of knowing what arte povera is should be enough proof of it ;)


    the new rich wear this clothes more than they wear off white and balenciaga imo, atleast the trend was active for 3-4 years in this manner, marc le bihan comes off as one of these brands. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by unwashed View Post
    Try to use a phone camera in broad daylight or use a proper camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
    I've found it extremely pleasant and enthralling over repeated whiffs so I would highly recommend.

  20. #4920

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    I thought the best fashion like Nike shoes with denim jeans and a Augusta Sportswear 352 Accelerate Jersey that is very awesome thought I have and the jersey idea I had seen at ustradeEnt ;)

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