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  • Anton
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2014
    • 261

    @Dropt I never said that there isn't plenty of rare stuff on Beatport, the reason people go for rare exclusive releases is exactly because Beatport has so much stuff there. Without a doubt there is a lot of "wanking" going on the vinyl world right now but this happens pretty much anywhere where anything can get in to the wrong hands. It started as a good thing and then other people joined...
    I love beautiful melodies, telling me terrible things.
    My Music: https://soundcloud.com/iamanton

    Comment

    • Dropt
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 405

      Oh for sure, we're on the same page. To be fair vinyl releases at least (usually) have some healthy curating to them, whereas when you hear some of the shit bandied around on beatport…

      Comment

      • julian_doe
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2013
        • 339

        Originally posted by Dropt View Post
        Oh for sure, we're on the same page. To be fair vinyl releases at least (usually) have some healthy curating to them, whereas when you hear some of the shit bandied around on beatport…
        Thanks for your replies, Anton and Dropt.

        I agree that most music can be found online, and that most records being released today are just a physical manifestation of the digitally recorded music that artists release. My personal reason for looking for these old records is the sentimental value that these bands have had throughout my life.

        For example, I mostly prefer 7" releases which have tracks that are rare, perhaps even samples for a musician's side project.

        Access to fashion/music/art online is not something which I see as a negative thing. I currently live in Orlando, FL and I can tell you that the only access I have to view the work of the designers I admire is to either travel outside of the state or to view collections on https://www.sz-mag.com/ . I am glad that I am able to have some sort of access to the things I am passionate about, and I am glad that people all over the world have the chance to stumble upon the inspirational and beautiful works of the designers we hold to a high regard in this forum.

        My initial comment was about the actual work which new artists/designers are producing. When I still lived in SF and was able to see Off-White/Yeezy/Vetements in person, I was incredibly disappointed. In regards to new music, I barely listen to any bands/musicians who have not begun releasing music pre-2010. Everything feels like it is lacking substance...new products/songs are engineered without sweat/calluses...and I can somehow see this in each finished piece.

        I am sure that people older than me would say something similar about the things that I like.

        People that fail to perceive the technical musicianship of a Daughters song, and prefer the Rolling Stones.

        People that see the dead-end long jacket by CCP as an erratic tailoring experiment because it doesn't follow traditional tailoring rules (sleeves past the wrist, for example), and prefer Kiton.

        My question is whether this is generational thing or not.

        Comment

        • Hon
          Member
          • Dec 2017
          • 33

          Julian,
          As someone who is definitely part of the younger generation on SZ, I will offer my opinion about the matter. Aside from fashion, growing up, I used to enjoy video games and sports. And then when I got older, my tastes refined themselves and got more specific. For example, now I only enjoy soccer and barely enjoy video games. I go back and listen to the music from my youth, from when I was 10 years old playing games. I was a blessed ten year old, I got hooked on the Guitar Hero video game franchise. My friends and I were 10 years old playing Buckethead and Metallica on a plastic guitar, that's pretty cool to me. I bring up the video game example because in my opinion ALL video games have taken a major fall in the last five years with in-game purchases taking over; this eliminates content from the base game. However, to get into the point, I feel our standards and desires change drastically when we reach a certain point. It is easy to look back, in sports for example, and say that player is no doubt the best of all time. What some people forget to realize is, for whatever reason, we hate to admit to seeing greatness in the moment: LeBron James, Lionel Messi just to name a few. I am like yourself, I love seeing hard work put into something for a fantastic and rewarding product. I think it is a mix of getting older, having unlimited access and resources (as said by Anton), and finally the fact that media IS slowly becoming more and more shitty... To add one last point, most high school kids a few years younger than me have no sense of individuality at all, they're all followers and will do anything to fit in. They ride trends until they die and move onto the next one. They certainly don't appreciate the blood, sweat, and tears of a creator.

          Comment

          • julian_doe
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2013
            • 339

            Originally posted by Hon View Post
            Julian,
            As someone who is definitely part of the younger generation on SZ, I will offer my opinion about the matter. Aside from fashion, growing up, I used to enjoy video games and sports. And then when I got older, my tastes refined themselves and got more specific. For example, now I only enjoy soccer and barely enjoy video games. I go back and listen to the music from my youth, from when I was 10 years old playing games. I was a blessed ten year old, I got hooked on the Guitar Hero video game franchise. My friends and I were 10 years old playing Buckethead and Metallica on a plastic guitar, that's pretty cool to me. I bring up the video game example because in my opinion ALL video games have taken a major fall in the last five years with in-game purchases taking over; this eliminates content from the base game. However, to get into the point, I feel our standards and desires change drastically when we reach a certain point. It is easy to look back, in sports for example, and say that player is no doubt the best of all time. What some people forget to realize is, for whatever reason, we hate to admit to seeing greatness in the moment: LeBron James, Lionel Messi just to name a few. I am like yourself, I love seeing hard work put into something for a fantastic and rewarding product. I think it is a mix of getting older, having unlimited access and resources (as said by Anton), and finally the fact that media IS slowly becoming more and more shitty... To add one last point, most high school kids a few years younger than me have no sense of individuality at all, they're all followers and will do anything to fit in. They ride trends until they die and move onto the next one. They certainly don't appreciate the blood, sweat, and tears of a creator.
            If I understand what you are trying to get at, you actually believe that it IS a generational thing. Correct?

            Comment

            • Hon
              Member
              • Dec 2017
              • 33

              Originally posted by julian_doe View Post
              If I understand what you are trying to get at, you actually believe that it IS a generational thing. Correct?
              Yeah, sorry for the scattered points. I do think it is a generational thing, but there is a lot more to it. I also think that because of our access to resources our expectations are so goddamn high, and expectations can get higher with age. That could apply for many forms of media, fashion included I suppose. I am definitely biased in my personal opinion but the generation of kids my age and a little bit younger IN MY AREA is piss poor. Nobody has ambitions, everybody is going through the motions of college, etc. The idea of going to school for a "craft" is gone, nobody wants to put the blood, sweat, and tears into something they love doing, they just want to half ass it and reap the rewards. I know at least 25 people who joined the Armed Forces to "kill some towel heads." But then again, you could just argue American education systems are fucked. Nobody knows what they are doing anymore. To summarize, this generation (mine) is fucked. I don't know what needs to be changed, but to conclude, I do believe this is a generational thing. This is, of course, just my pessimistic opinion reflecting the environment I live in.

              Comment

              • julian_doe
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2013
                • 339

                Originally posted by Hon View Post
                Yeah, sorry for the scattered points. I do think it is a generational thing, but there is a lot more to it. I also think that because of our access to resources our expectations are so goddamn high, and expectations can get higher with age. That could apply for many forms of media, fashion included I suppose. I am definitely biased in my personal opinion but the generation of kids my age and a little bit younger IN MY AREA is piss poor. Nobody has ambitions, everybody is going through the motions of college, etc. The idea of going to school for a "craft" is gone, nobody wants to put the blood, sweat, and tears into something they love doing, they just want to half ass it and reap the rewards. I know at least 25 people who joined the Armed Forces to "kill some towel heads." But then again, you could just argue American education systems are fucked. Nobody knows what they are doing anymore. To summarize, this generation (mine) is fucked. I don't know what needs to be changed, but to conclude, I do believe this is a generational thing. This is, of course, just my pessimistic opinion reflecting the environment I live in.
                No need to apologize, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.

                As mentioned previously I definitely feel that there is a generational factor to this unfulfilled feeling I get when I give something "new" a chance. And like you, I also think that it is not the ONLY factor.

                Things feel far more insipid today, and those who still keep true to the "craft" are few and far in between.
                Last edited by julian_doe; 04-02-2018, 02:44 PM.

                Comment

                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37852

                  Originally posted by Dropt View Post
                  Oh for sure, we're on the same page. To be fair vinyl releases at least (usually) have some healthy curating to them, whereas when you hear some of the shit bandied around on beatport…
                  I could never square techno and vinyl. Explain.
                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • Faust
                    kitsch killer
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 37852

                    Originally posted by julian_doe View Post
                    Thanks for your replies, Anton and Dropt.

                    I agree that most music can be found online, and that most records being released today are just a physical manifestation of the digitally recorded music that artists release. My personal reason for looking for these old records is the sentimental value that these bands have had throughout my life.

                    For example, I mostly prefer 7" releases which have tracks that are rare, perhaps even samples for a musician's side project.

                    Access to fashion/music/art online is not something which I see as a negative thing. I currently live in Orlando, FL and I can tell you that the only access I have to view the work of the designers I admire is to either travel outside of the state or to view collections on https://www.sz-mag.com/ . I am glad that I am able to have some sort of access to the things I am passionate about, and I am glad that people all over the world have the chance to stumble upon the inspirational and beautiful works of the designers we hold to a high regard in this forum.

                    My initial comment was about the actual work which new artists/designers are producing. When I still lived in SF and was able to see Off-White/Yeezy/Vetements in person, I was incredibly disappointed. In regards to new music, I barely listen to any bands/musicians who have not begun releasing music pre-2010. Everything feels like it is lacking substance...new products/songs are engineered without sweat/calluses...and I can somehow see this in each finished piece.

                    I am sure that people older than me would say something similar about the things that I like.

                    People that fail to perceive the technical musicianship of a Daughters song, and prefer the Rolling Stones.

                    People that see the dead-end long jacket by CCP as an erratic tailoring experiment because it doesn't follow traditional tailoring rules (sleeves past the wrist, for example), and prefer Kiton.

                    My question is whether this is generational thing or not.
                    I don't think it's a generational thing entirely. But you do get some cultural baggage at some point in your life, and I think that's fine. We can only process so much. But there are pretty obvious qualitative cultural differences from one decade to the next. Pop is pop and always will be. I don't necessarily know if today's hip-hop takeover of pop-music is any worse than New Kids on the Block or Motown or Elvis Presley. Is Madonna better than Brittney Spears, and is she better than Lady Gaga? I don't know - maybe. But is her music better, or is it simply because she blazed the trail? Anyway, at the end of the day, It's all shit to me.
                    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                    Comment

                    • stagename
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 497

                      Originally posted by julian_doe View Post
                      Things feel far more insipid today, and those who still keep true to the "craft" are few and far in between.
                      A hypothesis I have (and I'm currently testing in the music context) is that a proliferation of business and technological tools are nudging the arts towards neoliberal professionalization where customer-oriented artists create what audiences "want" to hear. All of this insidiously happens unbeknownst to the artists themselves, who have grown up in this environment, and is further fueled through instant social comparison through plays/likes/streams/views/etc that constantly validates their quest. Instagram celebrities is probably the most flagrant example of this. Because everything outside of the mold that has somehow acquired an audience can be co-opted almost overnight, what is or is not authentic becomes lost in the flow of artistic products, and everything ends up sounding a bit phony.

                      Comment

                      • matglenn
                        Member
                        • Jun 2016
                        • 90

                        Originally posted by julian_doe View Post
                        Things feel far more insipid today, and those who still keep true to the "craft" are few and far in between.
                        I don't think there's a shortage of good design right now, I just think the platforms are too saturated, as with music, it's easiest to romanticize the designers of the past instead of filtering through new designers and waiting on them to prove their longevity.

                        I think social contexts are important too, CCP and Helmut Lang came from different social spaces that young designers are dealing with now. I think that gender non-conforming, androgynous clothing is important to young designers now because gender has become such an important conversation for us to have. Obviously its been capitalized on thoroughly, but it can be avant-garde in its own respect.

                        Maybe Greenberg's points could lend to the discussion of popular vs avant-garde fashion?
                        http://www.sharecom.ca/greenberg/kitsch.html I know its dated to the point of being almost obsolete, but Greenberg sure loved the avant-garde! And disliked kitsch, which I feel is a view shared by many on SZ. I think brands like Vetements and Off-White cater to people in similar ways that Transformers and Fast & Furious do

                        So generational, yes, but I think its also dependent on social and political contexts, neoliberalism, individualism, access, accelerated global capitalism etc. So many things !

                        Comment

                        • Faust
                          kitsch killer
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 37852

                          Originally posted by stagename View Post
                          A hypothesis I have (and I'm currently testing in the music context) is that a proliferation of business and technological tools are nudging the arts towards neoliberal professionalization where customer-oriented artists create what audiences "want" to hear. All of this insidiously happens unbeknownst to the artists themselves, who have grown up in this environment, and is further fueled through instant social comparison through plays/likes/streams/views/etc that constantly validates their quest. Instagram celebrities is probably the most flagrant example of this. Because everything outside of the mold that has somehow acquired an audience can be co-opted almost overnight, what is or is not authentic becomes lost in the flow of artistic products, and everything ends up sounding a bit phony.
                          In other words - Blame the Audience
                          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                          Comment

                          • Fuuma
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 4050

                            To be honest I fail to see how the mass or even pop culture of yore is inferior to current popmass. Sure I love the Ramones and don't listen to, I dunno, Rihanna but for me all this stuff is just different cultural configurations and personal narratives with equal value. I'm not trying to flatten the whole cultural edifice btw, I don't think high culture should be equated to that stuff. Sure Schoenberg (to stela from Adorno) is superior to pop music and the plays of Heiner Müller to the current crop of "upper middle brow" tv series. I am merely stating that the fight over which middle brow production matters is more about social positioning or representation than true aesthetic grading.

                            Note that I hold this objective position while my own subjective opinion strongly favours some cultural middle brow creations over others. As Niels Bohr said of a lucky horseshoe he had in his chalet "I was told it works even if I don't believe in it."
                            Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                            http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                            Comment

                            • stagename
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 497

                              Originally posted by Faust View Post
                              In other words - Blame the Audience
                              No, I don't see this as an audience/customer-driven phenomenon, but an ideologically-driven one (hence the "neoliberal professionalization"). Although some companies (e.g. Zara) are decidedly customer-oriented, and here a "blame the audience" argument might make sense, what I'm arguing is that creative producers, generally speaking, unconsciously, non-reflexively, etc. embody such a customer-orientation. It's not that they actively want to produce whatever "bad" product the masses want for the sake of making money/becoming successful/etc., it's that they are unable to see any other possibility. This is amplified through feedback mechanisms in place with the technologies that contribute to this movement in the first place, as well as the incapacity by any actor to challenge the status quo because everything can be rapidly identified and readily re-integrated into this hegemonic system.

                              Comment

                              • Faust
                                kitsch killer
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 37852

                                Originally posted by stagename View Post
                                No, I don't see this as an audience/customer-driven phenomenon, but an ideologically-driven one (hence the "neoliberal professionalization"). Although some companies (e.g. Zara) are decidedly customer-oriented, and here a "blame the audience" argument might make sense, what I'm arguing is that creative producers, generally speaking, unconsciously, non-reflexively, etc. embody such a customer-orientation. It's not that they actively want to produce whatever "bad" product the masses want for the sake of making money/becoming successful/etc., it's that they are unable to see any other possibility. This is amplified through feedback mechanisms in place with the technologies that contribute to this movement in the first place, as well as the incapacity by any actor to challenge the status quo because everything can be rapidly identified and readily re-integrated into this hegemonic system.
                                I know what you are saying - I just don't think you are taking your line of thought to the logical conclusion. If I post a suit and it gets 100 likes on IG and then post a sweatshirt and it gets a 1000 likes, so I start making sweatshirts, at the end of the day, blame the audience. And believe me when I say this - these companies do serious quantitative in-depth analysis on consumer behavior. Or what am I missing?
                                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                                Comment

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