random fashion thoughts

[HugAndWug]

a kid who grew up in a trailer park with drunk parents who became a neuro surgeon and now lives in some suburbs with a white fence seems to be much more rebellious in reality than the guy who died his hair blue because his parents are a bit too square for him.

I've never heard of anyone seeing that as rebellious, rather the kid become pompous or "too good for his family."

I don't think you can really call rebellion going up too much.

[yay]

yeah i'm saying it's not viewed as such, but it's basically the same act

[Arkady]

what is and isn't rebellious and what is and isn't viewed as rebellious are often very different things. a kid who grew up in a trailer park with drunk parents who became a neuro surgeon and now lives in some suburbs with a white fence seems to be much more rebellious in reality than the guy who died his hair blue because his parents are a bit too square for him.

Absolute fair play to that. I might add that part of capitalism's resilience lies with its ability to integrate alternatives and opposing theories into its fold. The revolution wasn't televised because it was already a lunchbox.

[DudleyGray]

Those seem like really weak examples, though. How about during the 90s, when it was much less acceptable to be homosexual, and then Helmut Lang was putting out all these collections drawing inspiration from gay culture? Or more recently, when gender roles are being questioned and trangender people are true outcasts of society, and then Rick was putting out androgynous clothing?

If you judge rebellion according to the act of consuming, then of course it's a losing battle, consuming and excreting are inherent to being alive. But I still think it's worth examining and rebelling against how we consume when it involves abusing people in 3rd world countries and destroying the environment.

[stagename]

Those seem like really weak examples, though. How about during the 90s, when it was much less acceptable to be homosexual, and then Helmut Lang was putting out all these collections drawing inspiration from gay culture? Or more recently, when gender roles and trangender people were true outcasts of society, and then Rick was putting out androgynous clothing?

If you judge rebellion according to the act of consuming, then of course it's a losing battle, consuming and excreting are inherent to being alive. But I still think it's worth examining and rebelling against how we consume when it involves abusing people in 3rd world countries and destroying the environment.

That's probably part of the reason why Rick is on the map. And yes, disco and the Village People, house music as well as Madonna totally changed how music is commercialized and understood by the masses. I'd say that your misunderstanding of the "shock value" of transgression. There's also a different audience in high fashion vs. mainstream.

Go read the books and articles I suggested earlier and let's talk again after.

EDIT:
Also, this is a great example of what I meant. The co-optation of homosexual cultural signs by both Helmut and Rick helped in legitimizing these signs/types of apparel/associated behaviours, which facilitated the emergence of legitimate, mainstream market for symbolically-laden homosexual goods. So both Rick and Helmut, rather than contesting, probably fostered the creation of a new market, and thus contributed to markets and capitalis, rather than contesting it.

[Faust]

You know what would be an interesting thesis to explore - a real rebel is a producer, the pseudo-rebels is a consumer. It literally just came into my mind, and it's something to ponder.

[unwashed]

Consumers also produce. They produce a mood or an image and create emotions from others be it good or bad. Consumers may have a broader view on things and aren't restricted/bounded by a narrow vision brands and desingers have. Therefore consumers can be more rebellious by combining different visions creating something new.

[MJRH]

Here one must ask, who but a member of the comfortable or agnostic classes imagines that people need to be brainwashed into being greedy? The acquisitive instinct ... is after all fairly easily engaged. It was Karl Marx ... who wrote that, in relation to his victims, the capitalist "therefore searched for all possible ways of stimulating them to consume, by making his commodities more attractive and by filling their ears with babble about new needs." Marx also thought, as is usually forgotten or overlooked, that this impulse led to innovation and experiment and to the liberating process of what has sometimes been called "creative destruction." In other words, it is a means of arousing discontent with the status quo, not a mere means of stupefying the masses. Our own contemporary world suggests that the energy of capital is not easily compatible with stasis. Christopher Hitchens, from his essay on Huxley

[dji]

you know you've been buying too much Rick when their customer service emails you to let you know a certain piece you enquired about several months ago is now available.

[1994]

The co-optation of homosexual cultural signs by both Helmut and Rick helped in legitimizing these signs/types of apparel/associated behaviours, which facilitated the emergence of legitimate, mainstream market for symbolically-laden homosexual goods. So both Rick and Helmut, rather than contesting, probably fostered the creation of a new market, and thus contributed to markets and capitalis, rather than contesting it.

stagename the anomaly with Helmut and Rick (as opposed to some of your other examples like Madonna) is that they were both active members of queer communities. Rick's first work was with Goddess Bunny and Rick Castro, who continue to be prominent LA icons. They've never shied away from gender and sexuality in their multitudes. But have enjoyed dismantling while poking-fun at them through design. You can take your pick with harness paraphernalia or models wearing pony-play tails.

Despite blatant "queer semiotics" Helmut and Rick saw success because they brought explicitly new aesthetics at times where they were culturally relevant. Unfortunately, these looks/ideologies have typically been watered-down by media and retailers in order to provide a more normative and profitable brand identity.

[Faust]

/\ on point. Couldn't have said it better.

[stagename]

stagename the anomaly with ...

Fair point and thanks!

I'm working on co-optation in the field of electronic music at the moment and I see what i'd say is a multi-staged co-optation process, for lack of a better term, that played over and over and over again since the 80s. I think this shows that co-optation is a simplified process and a thorough examination shows that central field members were first responsible for the commercialization of certain elements of a stigmatized and/or niche community, as you pointed out with rick and helmut. so i'd say that this fits the model, rather than being an anomaly, albeit not how we usually talk about co-optation, and not something i knew/had foreseen when i made my comment. nevertheless, i'd still argue that they did both helped in "breaking" the look/codes.

was it really the "times where they were culturally relevant", though? I'm having problems with this line of reasoning, and it is one that is often used to explain why something caught on. I think there are more complex dynamics at play. For example, i'd argue that les deux cafes for rick was probably more central to the diffusion of his designs than the "right times" fo rthe use of homosexual imagery. that might be a topic for another day.

[1994]

i'd argue that les deux cafes for rick was probably more central to the diffusion of his designs than the "right times" for the use of homosexual imagery. that might be a topic for another day.

There's a lot more to Rick Owens' success than a benefactor and queerness. Les Deux Cafes may have played a part in the concentration of his designs, but not the diffusion of them. Especially when you consider the late night crowd that sat at its bar which included Vaginal Davis.

How about during the 90s, when it was much less acceptable to be homosexual, and then Helmut Lang was putting out all these collections drawing inspiration from gay culture?

The reality is 90s New York and Los Angeles were still meccas for subversive communities. You had people protesting in the streets of NYC and could still find leather party warehouses in LA. People weren't interested in acceptance, they were looking to undermine the system or exist completely outside of it.

Rick Owens and Helmut Lang were not anti-fashion. But they were avant-garde. Helmut introduced vibrant utilitarian modernity and rejected old systems of classification. Rick provided a new style grounded in aesthetics which traditionally hadn't been thought of as attractive, nevermind fashion. So yes, I do think they emerged at a time when culture was ready to pay attention to them.

[TheDivinitus]

Wasn't sure where to post it (btw SZ got a shout-out):
"If Mad Max started a luxury fashion label, it would look like the work of these designers" - http://qz.com/402478/if-mad-max-star...ese-designers/

[naturalalmonds]

Ahem. Olivier Rousteing let the world know that Balmain is the next high fashion label to collaborate with H&M.