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  • Icarium
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2010
    • 380

    Yeah but society doesn't owe you a forum for observing a designer's work. These labels make things to be sold and not purely to inspire and educate students or designer fans.

    That you have no other method of doing so isn't really the store's responsibility to handle. This isn't some kind of innate human entitlement that everyone gets. Save up and buy stuff or make friends with people in the industry or folks who have pieces you want to check out.

    She could have been less rude about how she treated you, but given how tough these shops seem to have with staying in business... after a period of time of not making sales, I can see how on a bad day someone can be a dick.

    Comment

    • hurricane08
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 258

      wait ,you returned two items ,you never got back the refunds from the stores and you were overcharged as well from the other one?

      My brother was with his girlfriend at PNP last year and had a very warm welcome eventhough they walked in to have a look and have a chat with the assistants.

      Originally posted by image View Post
      I've had serious issues with Pollyanna, IF, and Lazzari dealing with store credit.
      Have had no problems with most online retailers. Love The Archive, Darklands (from my one order and several emails), and even the above listed stores in all my other transactions with them.

      Lazzari is the only one I'd give a pass on. It was a CCP suit I sent back about 3 years ago and emails regarding the store credit have gone unanswered.

      With Pollyanna, Fred had made a mistake on a charge, never discounted my next order with the credit even though I'd mentioned it to him. I then told him I wanted to purchase something with the credit and told him what it was, my email was ignored. A while back someone else from the store did in fact ask me to dig up the old emails but I was unable to find them.

      IF, I returned a Paul Harnden jacket and was specifically told the store credit had no expiration. Last trip into NYC the same salesperson told me it expired. I argued the point, he admitted he had said it didn't expire, but they had no record of the credit and I haven't been able to find the original.

      Comment

      • i-d-g
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 113

        Originally posted by Icarium View Post
        Yeah but society doesn't owe you a forum for observing a designer's work. These labels make things to be sold and not purely to inspire and educate students or designer fans.

        That you have no other method of doing so isn't really the store's responsibility to handle. This isn't some kind of innate human entitlement that everyone gets. Save up and buy stuff or make friends with people in the industry or folks who have pieces you want to check out.

        She could have been less rude about how she treated you, but given how tough these shops seem to have with staying in business... after a period of time of not making sales, I can see how on a bad day someone can be a dick.
        This would be valid if I were in trying on different garments and troubling the SA for things I knew I wasn't going to buy, but for ghosting around the shop for a couple of minutes (like I was doing today), I think the store should absolutely welcome that.

        The store is the meeting point between the product and the audience. You're proposing I make friends that wear these products to observe the garments, when I could go see all of these products conveniently in one place? Depending on where you live and who you already know, that is strenuous at best. It doesn't make any sense.

        I have been warmly welcomed by Atelier, Hostem, Vertice, IF Boutique and other independent shops, none of which have had any trouble talking to me about the product and being friendly if I leave without making a purchase.

        I don't agree with the "go out of your way make friends with someone who owns a Harnden coat instead of burdening the store front with 5 minutes of browsing" argument. Logistically its not doable.
        “Man has somehow always feared this search, and I fear it even now. Suppose all man ever does is search for the reason, crosses oceans, sacrifices his life in the search; but to search it out, actually to find it, he’s afraid. For he senses that once he finds it, there will be nothing to search for.”

        Comment

        • Icarium
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2010
          • 380

          I don't see stores as "the meeting point between the product and the audience."

          I personally believe that stores are there primarily to sell things and most have to do so in order to survive. Maybe some stores, due to concept or location, cost more to operate than they could ever recoop from sales and is worth it due to the marketing value, but PNP is not one of those stores.

          Maybe it's not your intent, but what you are saying essentially translates to "what you say doesn't make sense, because me browsing in a store for 5 minutes is way more convenient than making friends and the cost of my browsing is negligible and other stores welcome me"

          I don't think your convenience is something a store needs to cater to unless you are a customer. It's nice when they do, but it shouldn't be something you expect or feel entitled to. Sure it'd be nice if everyone was super nice, but why get angry when they aren't?

          Your assumption that browsing is basically cost-free is a self-serving one.

          Maybe browsing doesn't seem to cost anything, but operating a retail location is extremely expensive and frustration over lack of sales to offset those costs may lead to snippiness at browsers. Again, would be great if everyone was polite and nice, but reality is life is stressful and sometimes you vent.

          Comment

          • stagename
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2011
            • 497

            A thought from the i-d-g etc. discussion. If you want your store to operate similar to an on appointment only store, make it on appointment only. If not, expect to have customers come in the store and browse and try on stuff and talk to you and ask questions. That's the idea of having a store. Hell, flagships are primarly desgined for that. The idea that, as a customer, you should make a buy when going in a store is ludicrous.

            Personally, I usually try to create relationships with store owners/staff before buying anything. If the staff is not willing to help me or is not friendly to a potential customer, I don't expect them to treat me particularly nicely after I bought something, and if they did so, if you feel highly artificial. I see it as similar to "see how peopel treat waiters to see how they treat people generally" kind of a logic. I've done that in several store (top of my head, L'eclaireur, Serpentine, Gallery aesthete, Ssense, Rick) and everywhere the staff has been most helpful and interested to talk to me about their passion (clothes and fashion), share experiences, have a discussion. It often ends up that the staff insists that I try on garments just for the sake of it. Other stores I won't mention were much more snob and I just didn't return or purchase anything from there.

            And let's face it, it's not like these stores have tons of foot traffic either. I don't get this "oh-no-the-one-customer-visiting-me-today-might-not-buy-anything-and-I'll-have-to-put-stuff-back-on-hangers" attitude.
            Last edited by stagename; 05-30-2014, 03:04 PM. Reason: corrected meaningless sentences ;)

            Comment

            • Dorje
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2013
              • 284

              I agree with stagename.

              Also, from the point of view of making the most money, stores should be helpful and friendly to ANYONE that comes in. I understand the frustration of browsers who never buy having worked in retail sales myself, but it's part of the job and part of operating a store. Many browsers turn into buyers eventually... it may take longer than you want as a salesperson, but taking a hostile attitude toward browsers will only cost you sales in the long run. I worked on commission for many years, so I know how to make money, not satisfy my ego... which is what hostile sales people are doing.

              Comment

              • 550BC
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2013
                • 783

                well said stagename

                most of the time you can feel it with the first step inside if the store has a friendly atmosphere or not.

                some staff doesn't even say a simple ''hello'' , I experienced this at Margreeth Olsthoorn in Rotterdam not long ago. Margreeth her self did say a hi, but it seemed forced and fake..actually the entire talk with her seemed like these forced ''fashion'' conversations, that fake friendliness ,but she actually doesn't wants to act friendly but she is doing it for the sake of a sale maybe.

                Anyway she has a better attitude than that woman at PNP.
                a fish out of water dies

                Comment

                • Lucky Strike
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 101

                  Unless you are blind or simply go into the wrong store out of mistake, every person who enters a store do so for a reason. It could be because they are ready to make a purchase, or just out of curiosity. To not treat all these people as nice as you possibly could is suicide for business. I work at one of the biggest retailers (not clothing) in the world. I have around 100-200 customers per day, and my only concern is that I do not have enough time with each customer. People working in a high-end clothing shop that can't spare their precious time on potential customers should probably consider a change of career.

                  I know buyers who wont buy certain brands at the paris show etc because the ones selling are not nice people. Some people might consider certain items to be art, but mostly its just business and to make good business, being welcoming and friendly to just about everyone is a good starting point.

                  If people are just browsing your shop and never purchase you are probably not a very good seller. So I kind of understand if unfriendly staff gets a lot of people just browsing.

                  Comment

                  • halffried
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2013
                    • 7

                    I visited PNP last year as part of a trip to Europe, and really enjoyed the experience. By happenstance I met the owner, and his wife (who may of been who i-d-g talked to). Despite wearing my most terribly normal tourist clothes, their customer service was excellent - only l'eclaireur had better - and they had the best selection of pieces of any store on my trip, although by the time of my visit it was very late in the season. This may bias my opinion.

                    I don't think a store can expect you to buy something every visit, or even have the intention of buying something on a particular visit. However if you don't have any intention of ever buying something, but are just using that store's stock for some other purpose (research, checking fit before buying online, etc) I think you are being rude at best.

                    On the other hand, a retailer can't know your intentions. It behoves them to treat every customer with respect. I agree with stagename here - the initial friendliness of a retailer makes a big difference in my enjoyment of the shopping experience, and in my personal willingness to buy pieces from them.

                    i-d-g, I think you had the misfortune of being part of a group, most members of which fall into the never-buying camp. Given the size of the fashion school compared to the size of the city, and the convenience of having a quality boutique nearby, I suspect they get a lot of students, and can understand the salespersons frustration at "yet another fashion student here to damage stock and spend no money" - even if that doesn't describe you. People make snap judgements and act passionately on them - Italians (at least stereotypically) doubly so.

                    Comment

                    • Faust
                      kitsch killer
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 37852

                      Originally posted by Shucks View Post
                      what exactly does "to genuinely appreciate the selection" mean? just loiter around, touch delicate and expensive garments and waste sales staff's time?

                      to be frank, i can totally see this lady's point of view on this. it's fucking annoying when carefully curated store environments are treated like showrooms or museums, by students or others.

                      if there is zero chance you might purchase something, maybe you shouldn't be in the store until you are ready to buy. it's not a "retail experience" if you are doing research for some school project.
                      I disagree. If the store is smart they will see potential future customers. But there is nothing smart about PNP. Provincial mentality coupled with treating the store as mere business. I'd spend my money elsewhere.
                      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                      Comment

                      • Faust
                        kitsch killer
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 37852

                        Originally posted by Icarium View Post
                        I don't see stores as "the meeting point between the product and the audience."
                        Well, too bad for you, because that's what all the iconic stores have been. It's incredibly shortsighted to say that a fashion boutique is there just to push product, as if it's a used car dealership.
                        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                        Comment

                        • i-d-g
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 113

                          Icarium- You're missing the point I made about making a possible purchase in the future, if I feel comfortable enough with the store. Sure, it might be a much longer process for the SA, but I do purchase. Also, I'd love to see a tally of how many times you've left a store without buying something, or tried on a garment without the flat out intention of buying it. Like stagename said, if a store expects everyone who walks in to buy something, they should operate by appointment only.

                          Anyway, well said stagename, dorje, lucky, halffried, and faust.

                          And to those who say that they've had good experience with PNP- I've had good experiences and even good conversations with the younger SAs in there. One girl and one guy.. not sure of their names. They've both been helpful and enjoyable the previous 2 times I've been in there (once in the mens store, once in the womens).
                          “Man has somehow always feared this search, and I fear it even now. Suppose all man ever does is search for the reason, crosses oceans, sacrifices his life in the search; but to search it out, actually to find it, he’s afraid. For he senses that once he finds it, there will be nothing to search for.”

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            Received fantastic service at the Rick Owens store in Paris today. They even opened the store one hour early just so my friends and I could shop because we all had early flights. Barbara rocks.
                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • DudleyGray
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2013
                              • 1143

                              In the midst of the unfortunate PNP incident debate going on, I'd like to give Joan Shepp in Philadelphia a nice review. Their staff has always been helpful, even recommended a very good cobbler for me, despite my never having purchased anything from them, as most of their stock is mostly Dries, MMM, Philip Lim, and Y-3. But they seem to be carrying some DRKSHDW, so maybe there's hope. There really aren't enough boutiques that I know of in this area short of trekking up to NYC, so I'd like to help them any way I can even if they don't have anything I want. It's always worth supporting the ability to try things on locally, of course.
                              bandcamp | facebook | youtube

                              Comment

                              • Shucks
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2010
                                • 3104

                                Originally posted by Faust View Post
                                I disagree. If the store is smart they will see potential future customers. But there is nothing smart about PNP. Provincial mentality coupled with treating the store as mere business. I'd spend my money elsewhere.

                                in general i would agree, but this 'potential' can be very close to zero in some cases, and as a store manager you absolutely develop a sense of this. fashion- and design students being a case in point - no one is thriftier and better at 'showrooming' than they are, and their sense of entitlement can be unbelievable.

                                i can just imagine how many polimoda-kids go to PNP to "appreciate their favorite designers" (a.k.a. loiter) and then move away from firenze without ever having bought a single item in the store. it is one thing going in to a store to just browse, it is another to use for pure "convenient" entertainment, messing up the visual merchandizing and distracting both staff (who need to keep an eye on all persons in a store, regardless of what they are doing) and customers.

                                in retail, there is definitely something to be said for ABC analysis, even if the lady in question may or may not have been too explicit in voicing her thoughts in this particular situation.

                                Comment

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