Ageism in the Fashion Industry - Thoughts?

[ortem]

I had an interesting experience that I wanted to share and get some opinions on. I think it is safe to assume that some of the members here work in the fashion industry and I also assume that a fair amount of you are over 30 years old.

I myself am well into my 30's and I am the Advertising and Marketing Manager at a web design firm. Prior to my current position, I worked in fashion retail both in sales and upper management over the years, and designed costumes for nightlife performers. My love affair with fashion has been constant since I was a teen and I am ready to circle back around to it professionally and add all my talents to the Marketing Division of a fashion brand.

For the last year I’ve taken a few continuing education classes at FIT and this Fall, I am currently taking a continuing education class at Parsons to compare the 2 schools.

Last week at the end of class, I approached my instructor and asked for her professional input on my next steps. She has worked in the industry for 30+ years including teaching. She's held positions as a Merchandiser, Buyer and Product Manager for national contemporary brands. I figured with all this experience, she would be a wealth of knowledge. The resulting conversation was a surprise to me.

I told her what I wanted to do and asked her opinion on it and her first question was. "How old are you?" (Not "What sort of experience do you have?") And she went on to say "You need to move fast because you don't have much time." When I asked her what she meant by this, she said there is ageism in the fashion industry and that I would have to compete with younger people for the same position. Then she proceeded to tell me her story of how she was laid-off time after time so that upper management could bring in a younger person and pay them less to do her job. She is 53 years old. Apparently this happened to her and to several of her peers and this is why she teaches. According to her, she makes 1/3 of what she made working for a brand.

This became a personal rant for her and I departed feeling a confused. Since then, I have come to a few conclusions.

a) Maybe I caught her on a bad day but regardless, I think she handled the conversation poorly. She forgot she was talking to a student. The conversation was not productive at all. I wasn't looking for her to sugar-coat anything, but she tried to make her issue, my issue.

b) I think that part of the problem with ageism is that people accept it. But I DO NOT accept the idea that a 22 year old is of more worth to a company then I am. There is this thing called EXPERIENCE and it is valuable and I refuse to get over looked or walked on because of how old I am. That's just pure bullshit to me.

c) I don’t select my jobs based on money. I select my jobs based on the people I am working with and what we are creating. I need to believe in our mission. I am not expecting to become Donald Trump working in Marketing. On the other hand, I want the company I work for to understand that experience is worth paying for.

Isn’t it?

I’m sad that my instructor feels discarded by the fashion industry and I am also mad at her for not fighting back.

So... the reason I decided to share this is because I would like input on the idea of ageism in the fashion industry. Have you been a victim of it? Have you witnessed it? If so, how did you handle it? If this is the first time that you’ve really given ageism in this segment of the fashion industry any thought, how do you feel about it?

Let me end this be saying I have no issues with people younger than me and I have no issue bowing out gracefully to someone who is more experienced than I am or if they’re a rocket scientist or far more clever etc... But making it about age - that is unacceptable.

[Heirloom]

ha! I wish it was as such, that younger people had an easier time to get a job. I'm still without a job, and I've been searching all summer. outof the 4 years i've been outof school i've managed to have a paying job for a year. I do things. I'm qualified. I have good experience and skills for my age, but it does not seem of any importance to the people I approach. I sometimes question wether I am blaming the age factor, but when I look at people around me that work in fashion, most people my age have only done unpaid internships. They're new and inexperienced and are expected to do it. I need a paying job, but I doubt I would find something that pays in this industry as long as the standard for my age group is free labour.

[525252]

hmm age discrimination in fashion is as present as any other kind of discrimination anywhere, and its always easy to blame misfortune on others with bitter complacency

it just seems your instructor is just the same hole you and Heirloom and I and every other person is in, I wrote about it in a different thread here: (Nobody should work for free http://stylezeitgeist.com/forums/sho...&postcount=147)

Basically the fashion industry is fundamentally flawed in its foundational structures and now its at breaking point because its unsustainable. All the wrong people are working for free and all the right people aren't working at all.

Its up to the entrepreneurs with nothing to lose to innovate models of commerce which don't make the same mistakes as the current model which is seeing to everyone being unemployed and some dude in Spain being stupendously rich.

but anyway, discrimination is pretty much beside the much larger messier point.

[Faust]

I don't really have any experience with ageism, so I can only speculate. I would assume that on a retail floor at Rag & Bone, say, the management wants a young pretty thing. But I am not sure that's what they want in the upper echelons of a company. I mean fashion is so mismanaged, it's not even funny. You'd think they'd want someone with brains and experience.

Individual cases vary significantly and who knows what your professor's was.

[ortem]

Its up to the entrepreneurs with nothing to lose to innovate models of commerce which don't make the same mistakes as the current model which is seeing to everyone being unemployed and some dude in Spain being stupendously rich.

Very good point...

I'm still without a job, and I've been searching all summer. outof the 4 years i've been outof school i've managed to have a paying job for a year. I do things. I'm qualified. I have good experience and skills for my age, but it does not seem of any importance to the people I approach. I sometimes question wether I am blaming the age factor, but when I look at people around me that work in fashion, most people my age have only done unpaid internships.

Thank you for pointing out the opposite end of the spectrum Heirloom.

It never fails, the deeper you go into the rabbit hole, the more you uncover the hidden truths.

[david s]

Just to add my two cents.

1) Fashion, like any creative field is hard to break into & you are competing against thousands of people who move to NYC to pursue it

2) I'm not sure if your teacher was trying to make her problem, your problem ... sounds like she was just trying to give you some sound (?) advice. I had a similar situation with fashion photography a couple of years back, the gist of the conversation being, "good fucking luck, the glory days are over & any fool with a iPhone thinks they can be the next Avedon". I put the question mark around 'sound' because I don't know your teacher and not as familiar with the fashion industry career wise.

Just an FYI my initial impression when my teacher told me that was the same, bombastic but in the end she was just trying to be helpful.

Finally without going into details ad nauseam. I think part of hiring younger people has to do simply with economics... they cost less. Granted that is a gross overstatement, but I think there is some truth in it, more grist for the mill.

One bright note, coming from advertising and working with fashion clients I have never met anyone under the age of 30 that was in a position of power. Some rare occasions but in general no.

[Faust]

Honestly, if someone asked me if they should work in fashion, I'd say no.

[Heirloom]

^I'm bound do agree. If someone is in a state where they'd ask someone for their opinion, their drive and passion for it is not strong enough. Basically, it's an industry most fit for people that don't know how to do anything else, hahaha.

[endorphinz]

best way to get into any field,especially fashion, is to get hired as a sales person,commissioned if need be. no one cares about anything but the bottom line and in sales, if you produce, you're a winner. once successfully entrenched, you have a voice that can be used to expand your responsibilities. of course, you need to be successful but if you're really good at the creative stuff, you should be able to sell with confidence and do a great job. when you sell, people are always anxious to hear what you need to sell more. that's when your creativity is put into play. you then take the ball and run as fast and far as you can.

I know this works.

people don't think as sales as glamorous but it is almost always the best paying job in any field and can be used to open doors

[ortem]

Just to add my two cents.
1) Fashion, like any creative field is hard to break into & you are competing against thousands of people who move to NYC to pursue it

Hey David... I am fine with this. I welcome a challenge as long as it is on a level playing field with no "isms". But since that is unrealistic, I have to find a way to work around or directly through any "isms".

I will just have to prove the nay-sayers wrong.

Just to add my two cents.
One bright note, coming from advertising and working with fashion clients I have never met anyone under the age of 30 that was in a position of power. Some rare occasions but in general no.

I thought of this as well... They climbed the ladder and fought tooth and nail to get where they are. It is possible.

people don't think as sales as glamorous but it is almost always the best paying job in any field and can be used to open doors

Very good point. If you excel at sales, you have power in the trenches and upper management is likely to have an eye on you. Heirloom - have you ever thought about starting in the retail end of a brand?

Honestly, if someone asked me if they should work in fashion, I'd say no.

Why is this Faust? We could pick apart any industry really. Is fashion so very lowly to you?

[Faust]

Low pay, bitchy, fake people, low rate of success, glass ceiling. Need I go on?

[ortem]

Low pay, bitchy, fake people, low rate of success, glass ceiling. Need I go on?

Somewhat ironic of you to say so of the industry. I suppose all you care for is the finished product? How do you think to have to such wonderfully desirable fashion? Did a librarian handle the merchandising? A yoga teacher cut the pattern? A priest sourced that fabric?

Every creative field is... special. Put a group of eccentric, originative, rebels together and you are going to have an unpredictable and emotionally charge environment. Better to work with them then a bunch of boring overpaid bankers.

[Faust]

Somewhat ironic of you to say so of the industry. I suppose all you care for is the finished product? How do you think to have to such wonderfully desirable fashion? Did a librarian handle the merchandising? A yoga teacher cut the pattern? A priest sourced that fabric?

Every creative field is... special. Put a group of eccentric, originative, rebels together and you are going to have an unpredictable and emotionally charge environment. Better to work with them then a bunch of boring overpaid bankers.

I operate on the fringes of the fashion industry - no irony here. As a matter of fact I am proud that I have assembled a team of decent, honest, caring people even though there is no pot of gold at the end of the tunnel, just a chance to breath fresh air through doing something worthwhile and fulfilling.

I don't see a difference between working with boring overpaid bankers and shallow bitchy gossipy queens. Same shit, different toilet.

[endorphinz]

Same shit, different toilet.

people are people, assholes are assholes

you need to define what kind of "fashion" we are talking about. the fashion business is no different that any other departmentalized, profit driven,bottom line is everything industry.upper and middle management in large "fashion" corps might have a banking or even washing machine background.

research the management of well known large brands and look at their background and credentials. results are pretty surprising

[ortem]

I operate on the fringes of the fashion industry - no irony here.

Core or fringe it is all the same industry.

You generalize the industry then make the exception for yourself. So you're the saint in the house of sinners.

Ok.

I also had the pleasure of working with some pretty cool queens, kings, women, men and everything in between while I was in fashion previously. I am seriously sorry that you haven't.