Rick Owens S/S 15 - Men's, Paris

[Faust]

I did not say he is worried about being co-opted. We are talking about something completely different, "explanation of a brand."

[apathy!]

So, here is a philosophical question for you (all) - does a brand become something else because of who wears it and how? Can its meaning be co-opted and does a brand have the ability to fight back, if it wants to?

absolutely, the perception of a brand is highly dependent on that brand's place in ones culture.

this is going to be clumsy: the garments themselves are the same physically regardless of context, the garments we see and respond too are very much affected by a whole lot of factors (who wears them with what and why etc).

[DudleyGray]

Edit: oh, there was a page turnover, I'm responding to the ease of wearing Rick.

I think that is very true. It's very easy to wear Rick. I feel there is less to live up to than something like Song for the Mute or IS. With artisan stuff, I would think "Am I pulling this off right? Am I doing this piece justice? Should I be prepared to know about overlock stitching and taped seams in case someone is in the know?" But Rick feels more, how you say, laissez-faire. Free to just be myself.

[1994]

...I mean, it still is, but it's also become something else, mostly through the patterns of consumption. The long-top/loose shorts/geobasekts uniform hardly telegraphs "leather bar."

So, here is a philosophical question for you (all) - does a brand become something else because of who wears it and how? Can its meaning be co-opted and does a brand have the ability to fight back, if it wants to?

I don't know, when was your last leather bar trip? It's all very uniformal and blasé.

Where do you begin to measure how much of a brand's image is external and how much is internal? Companies have to define their brand story and be consistent through all avenues all of the time. Rick Owens' brand internal control is predominantly through the website, runway shows, and limited social media platforms such as Instagram. Otherwise its largely at the mercy of external factors particularly however media outlets choose to frame it.

The Concise Dictionary of Dress is one of my favorite exhibitions which uses the context of archives to subvert assumptions made by systemization. It makes me wonder if we wrote a definition for - RICK OWENS. Proper noun, singular... what would it look like six years ago and what would it look like in 2014.

We love to define fashion with precise rules and fixed definitive meanings. But a lot of the Rick Owens brand lies in contextual and fluid concepts. It's impossible to sum up Rick Owens meaningfully in a word or catch phrase. We have visual objects and images like Dunks and Exploder jackets. While the invisible level of the brand is built by personal and collective layers of meaning. So as much as Rick professes his love for cults, I think he's also interested in being taken for a ride.

He's still the man who literally pissed on Pitti Uomo, used Goddess Bunny as an early model, continues to work with Rick Castro, and sent half-naked boys down the runway wagging pony tails behind themselves.

So I think it's impossible to truly nail down the power relations that sustain the Rick Owens brand while simultaneously subverting it.

[Faust]

I don't think it matters much - a leather bar without leather is no leather bar. But next time you go, I'll join you.

Yes, Rick is still the man who did all that and still does fun things on the runway. And, yet, any time you send something into the world you take a chance of it being co-opted. And for designer, if it's a problem (not sure if it is for Rick at all), it's a much harder one to solve because he does not have the creative freedom that an artist has.

Still, there is no doubt that your audience can have influence on you and you start catering to them. A hardcore Rick fan asked me a couple of days ago if Rick has begun catering to the hip-hop crowd with the widest of shorts, longest of bottoms, and endless sneakers. I don't think it's a question someone like that would've asked two/three years ago. I could not answer either way, but that's telling in itself, because a couple of years ago I would've firmly said "no."

[AKA*NYC]

A hardcore Rick fan asked me a couple of days ago if Rick has begun catering to the hip-hop crowd with the widest of shorts, longest of bottoms, and endless sneakers. I don't think it's a question someone like that would've asked two/three years ago. I could not answer either way, but that's telling in itself, because a couple of years ago I would've firmly said "no."

i think it's hard - if not impossible - to make the case that rick is catering to any particular demographic based on the past two runway shows. both moody and faun are thematically consistent with his previous output.

the shorts, bottoms, and even trainers may draw inspiration from and share morphological similarities with elements of various subcultures but they are still sui generis rick owens designs that just happen to be more accessible to the average person.

also is it me or is the proverbial rapper in geobaskets a "man bites dog" story? there were far more geobaskets at paris fashion week than at any rap concert. i feel that people are drawn to these shoes for a multitude of reasons that can't be easily pinned down.

[DudleyGray]

As long as he continues to hock a sort of celebrated androgyny, a luxury for weirdos, he will continue to take my money, regardless of target demographics or how he is perceived by any group of people.

[Faust]

AKA, I agree that it's probably impossible to make such a case - hence I could not give even a speculative answer one way or another. Rick's body of work is already too wide to cater to any specific group. You can do street Rick, dressed-up Rick, rock Rick.

Having said that, even though Moody and Faun were clearly Rick's designs, the silhouette (especially in Moody) seemed like more of a nod to a hip-hop audience - lots of wide shorts, lots of long and wide tops, sneakers.

I cannot answer your last paragraph. Of course geobaskets are still very rare and will always be there by virtue of their price tag. They are just less rare on the streets of New York than they used to be.

Of course it's always good to put these discussion in context. On the large scale Rick is still a drop in a bucket in the whole apparel market and the way most people dress definitely beholds no danger to the dilution of his work. I guess rarity is a relative term with a line that people will have to draw for themselves.

[1994]

The idea of Rick catering to anyone is funny to me.

Frankly I think kids who grew up with 90s Hip hop not only connect with the Rick Owens aesthetic but recognize it. People look at it like "shit 707 wore this Lucia Pieroni makeup in Where My Girls At and every rapper and R&B singer from the block whether Jodeci or Blackstreet had a black leather suit with slim cut blazer in '96." 90s Hip hop practically monopolized mesh and black leather. You want to talk about long baggy silhouettes? Yet long tees are visual icons of the time. Any kid in dunks or geobaskets is thinking about when they wore (and probably still wear) loose-laced AF1s. If you're familiar with Hip hop as a conglomerate subculture than your eyes and ears are fine tuned to beautiful dark poetics.

The fact that Rick's look is entirely his own but can be lended and recognized by so many people is what makes him so successful. For early Rick fans I don't think the similarities with Hip hop artistic forms and aesthetics was visually recognizable. It hadn't yet entered the predominant language used to speak about his work.

You've got Yasiin Bey kicking back doing rad work with Shaka Maidoh and Sam Lambert. Erykah Badu in Givenchy ads. So whether a lot of people are actually wearing geobaskets or not it's becoming more difficult for the fashion industry to gatekeep.

I'm entirely less concerned with whether or not Rick designs with inspiration from Hip hop in mind like Boris does, but more with why people believe Carlo Mollino is more relevant than Hip hop. Or who we believe these clothes are supposed to be worn by, and who should be excluded from them.

[Faust]

I'm entirely less concerned with whether or not Rick designs with inspiration from Hip hop in mind like Boris does, but more with why people believe Carlo Mollino is more relevant than Hip hop. Or who we believe these clothes are supposed to be worn by, and who should be excluded from them.

Yes, let's have that discussion for the hundredth time. :-)

[1994]

Yes, let's have that discussion for the hundredth time. :-)

Apologies for being a new user. But actually yes. I think we should talk about this today, tomorrow, and five years from now until we're all blue in the face. I think as we go about our daily lives interacting we should ask ourselves "Who is this for? Who is this not for? How is this framed? What kind of agenda setting is going on?"

But perhaps that's just me.

[550BC]

I actually started a thread not long ago about this subject, bad choice..(and I was not the first to start a similar thread) people are gonna feel like they are being stepped on their dick. but if you want to give it a try, curious if the same people will rage again.

[1994]

but if you want to give it a try, curious if the same people will rage again.

Made no attempt at striking up the conversation, just said it's my main concern and how I approach looking at brands and fashion as a whole.

Let's leave stepping on dicks to the Strap Me Up Women's high heels thread.

[Shucks]

i'll just quote this AGAIN, shall i? maybe it needs re-posting once per page in this thread?

Man, I don't think he's at all worried about being "co-opted". That second response should be stamped on the SZ banner as a reminder.

YOUR CLOTHING LOOKS DIFFICULT BUT IS ACTUALLY VERY EASY AND WEARABLE. I HEARD THAT THEY ARE ALREADY GETTING BACK POSITIVE RESPONSES IN KOREA. HOW MUCH DO YOU GIVE CONSIDERATION TO THE COMMERCIAL PARTS?

I WANT MY CLOTHES TO BE WORN. I WANT THEM TO BE A VIABLE OPTION, NOT A CONCEPTUAL INDULGENCE. BEING ABLE TO SLIGHTLY CHANGE HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT DRESSING IN EVERYDAY LIFE IS SO MUCH MORE PROFOUND TO ME THAN MAKING THINGS TO ONLY WEAR ONCE.

ALTHOUGH YOUR PIECES ARE WEARABLE, IT SEEMS THAT THERE ARE NOT MANY WOMEN WHO CAN REALLY LOOK GOOD IN YOUR CLOTHING. WHICH KIND OF WOMEN WOULD YOU LIKE IN YOUR CLOTHING?

I WOULD LIKE MY CLOTHES TO BE FOR EVERYONE. I WANT TO CREATE AN INCLUSIVE WORLD, NOT AN EXCLUSIVE ONE.

[Dane]

...until we're all blue in the face.

I fucking hate fashion forums.