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Selfridge's installs anti-homeless spikes outside store

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  • Fuuma
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2006
    • 4050

    #16
    Originally posted by yubbermax View Post
    What if they used something other than spikes that served the same purpose but was aesthetically pleasing?
    What if we redesigned Abu Ghraib to look like disneyland?
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

    Comment

    • eleves
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 524

      #17
      Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
      There are a series of aggressive urban measures specifically targeting micro-spaces the homeless can use, coupled with police and store owners harassment it says a lot about our humanity. Disciplinary architecture is shaping urban lives in ways small and big. Capitalist subjectification is, once again, getting in the way of us being a community of citizens.
      Originally posted by Faust View Post
      I have experienced this firsthand and thought about it many a time - the way private architecture is often designed is to keep you moving. No place to sit down, to rest. That's when I recall The Grapes of Wrath where Steinbeck describes so well the prerogative of police to keep the poor moving, to destroy them by tiring them out.
      Never considered or heard about that. I always assumed that people and the city tried to assist the homeless in the ways that are best for everyone involved. Disciplinary architecture.. that's something to think about.



      Originally posted by yubbermax View Post
      What if they used something other than spikes that served the same purpose but was aesthetically pleasing?
      Can't tell if you're joking or on to something deeper. If the spikes were beautiful mini statues of Rick Owens, would people say anything?
      Originally posted by Faust
      HOBBY?! HOBBY?!?!?!?!?! You are on SZ, buddy - it ain't no hobby, it's passion, religion, and unbounded cosmic love rolled into one.

      Comment

      • galia
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2009
        • 1719

        #18
        The problem is the purpose rather than the aesthetic quality of the elements involved.

        It's like when they replaced many benches in railway and subway stations in Paris with rows of chairs, making it impossible for anyone to lay down properly. It looks less agressive, but the end result is the same. Especially since the homeless people rarely interract with non-homeless travellers, they mainly live among themselves. Sure, they smell bad and you couldn't always sit down after a hard day before, so things have become more comfortable, but also more morally repulsive (as can often be the case with comfort)

        Comment

        • guardimp
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2010
          • 320

          #19
          Do the stores or other private spaces have some obligation to allow homeless people to sleep in front of them? I'm quite confused over the backlash. People don't think twice about not wanting homeless people sleeping under the awning of their patio - why should a major store be any different? It seems absurd to demand other people spend money or give up their property so that poor people can use it, while at the same time not personally doing anything. Micro-spaces for the homeless to sleep are great and all, but if you all feel that way why not personally provide a space rather then complain when someone else does not share your views?

          It seems quite odd to see the spikes on flat surfaces or the odd shaped anti-sleeping devices above warm subway vents in Queens, but those seem like people are missing the bigger issue. People should not have to sleep in those places, yet the underfunding of shelters and the lack of governmental programs to help the homeless is the real issue. This seems like shifting blame from the government inaction and public apathy. People love to speak up when they can blame the businesses but when they look deeper and find the blame is closer to home they all shut up.

          Comment

          • eleves
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2012
            • 524

            #20
            Originally posted by guardimp View Post
            Do the stores or other private spaces have some obligation to allow homeless people to sleep in front of them? I'm quite confused over the backlash. People don't think twice about not wanting homeless people sleeping under the awning of their patio - why should a major store be any different? It seems absurd to demand other people spend money or give up their property so that poor people can use it, while at the same time not personally doing anything. Micro-spaces for the homeless to sleep are great and all, but if you all feel that way why not personally provide a space rather then complain when someone else does not share your views?

            It seems quite odd to see the spikes on flat surfaces or the odd shaped anti-sleeping devices above warm subway vents in Queens, but those seem like people are missing the bigger issue. People should not have to sleep in those places, yet the underfunding of shelters and the lack of governmental programs to help the homeless is the real issue. This seems like shifting blame from the government inaction and public apathy. People love to speak up when they can blame the businesses but when they look deeper and find the blame is closer to home they all shut up.
            Now Queens is a place I don't see mentioned very often (at all) on this site. That's where I'm originally from and yeah those weird things above the vents around the area that I see them in are just kinda there. I actually see very little homeless activity near stations like 179th street as most of that activity gets relegated to the actual train station where the benches are filled with homeless people sleeping. Walking down to the train, there are times when you can get 5 or more people asking for money and it can get uncomfortable. I was wearing a parka the other day and a group of homeless people were shouting out a bunch of things at me" hey that looks like such a warm coat" to the point where it got quite interrupting. I would've loved to give them some money if they had asked for it. Another time someone started calling a friend of mine homophobic slurs because he didn't have a dolla to give him. It gets out of hand all around sometimes and makes lots of parties uncomfortable. The lack of help, especially governmental help is absolutely the real issue. If there really is no extra money though than what is already being funneled into helping the homeless, what are the next steps?
            Originally posted by Faust
            HOBBY?! HOBBY?!?!?!?!?! You are on SZ, buddy - it ain't no hobby, it's passion, religion, and unbounded cosmic love rolled into one.

            Comment

            • guardimp
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2010
              • 320

              #21
              The next step is obvious, the government will just spend all their money on useless employees due to corruption and graft and then make private citizens or their businesses foot the bill for everything they fail to do. Queens and NYC as a whole is absurd for the amount of stuff that goes on with the taxes being wasted.

              Comment

              • Shucks
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2010
                • 3104

                #22
                Originally posted by guardimp View Post
                the underfunding of shelters and the lack of governmental programs to help the homeless is the real issue.
                there are two key issues:

                1. solving the immediate situation of the homeless person - food, shelter, hygiene, personal safety etc.
                2. solving the long-term situation of the homeless person - employment, housing, healthcare...

                what individuals, businesses and the government do/don't do affects both these levels.

                Originally posted by guardimp View Post
                This seems like shifting blame from the government inaction and public apathy. People love to speak up when they can blame the businesses but when they look deeper and find the blame is closer to home they all shut up.
                the NIMBY-attitude is definitely a problem. but putting up spikes is also basically that - shifting the blame.

                Originally posted by Faust View Post
                I have experienced this firsthand and thought about it many a time - the way private architecture is often designed is to keep you moving. No place to sit down, to rest. That's when I recall The Grapes of Wrath where Steinbeck describes so well the prerogative of police to keep the poor moving, to destroy them by tiring them out.
                we are also pushed to keep moving because retail worships at the twin altars of 'traffic' and 'conversion rate'.

                Comment

                • nvsnli
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2013
                  • 197

                  #23
                  It is not Selfridges responsibility to take care of the homeless or offer them anything really.

                  Everyone seem to act so pro-hobo but if they try to sleep in your backyard im quite sure that will become an issue.

                  Comment

                  • DudleyGray
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2013
                    • 1143

                    #24
                    I don't think the home vs business is a fair comparison. One is a 100% private space, whereas the other is a little more gray area. It's privately owned but in a commercial district that the government has zoned accordingly, and people are allowed entry or to hang out (mostly) if they are customers or potential customers or even just browsing or bored.

                    In any case, it's not my responsibility (nor would anyone want it to be) to come up with a solution to the issues. I don't have any better ideas, no, but I also don't have to give my money to a luxury business that is explicitly anti-homeless.

                    The funny thing is that if they had just revamped their storefront for "design purposes" along the lines of the earlier Rick statuette joke and the urban design comments, it would have accomplished what they'd wanted and I would have been none the wiser.
                    bandcamp | facebook | youtube

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                    • HugAndWug
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 197

                      #25
                      Originally posted by guardimp View Post
                      . People don't think twice about not wanting homeless people sleeping under the awning of their patio - why should a major store be any different? It seems absurd to demand other people spend money or give up their property so that poor people can use it, while at the same time not personally doing anything.

                      People should not have to sleep in those places, yet the underfunding of shelters and the lack of governmental programs to help the homeless is the real issue. This seems like shifting blame from the government inaction and public apathy. People love to speak up when they can blame the businesses but when they look deeper and find the blame is closer to home they all shut up.
                      it's weird how you can realize there's an issue and still be wrong.

                      like yeah people might not be comfortable with someone sleeping on their patio (i mean if anyone wants to on mine i'd just rather let them bum on my couch because my patio isn't really hospitable for humans) but there is a difference between not helping someone and actively harming them. i'm not throwing glass on my patio to make sure nobody tries to sleep on it but actively changing something to impair the lives of the homeless is fucking gross.

                      and besides you can't really do shit for most of the issues of homelessness. you can't solve work availability/drug issues/mental health/disability by giving them money or a coat. that's why there is government help in the first place and why it obviously needs to be expanded.

                      Comment

                      • zamb
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2006
                        • 5834

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Fuuma View Post

                        FYI I think the new set of values is leading is to utter social ruin but I certainly do not blame SZ or want to go back to staid bourgeois domination, this is why thinkers are currently trying to revive the idea of socialism, think Badiou, funnyman Zizek or dudes like Michéa.

                        tldr: Faust used the term bourgeois not capitalist, he is entirely right.
                        I had ask Fuuma to elaborate on this and he sai to me that he place where i asked did not seem to be right for such a discussion. I am posting here again because i think it fits very well into the discussion of what selfridges has done and peoples reaction to it.

                        first off, I take no offense to what the store has done. if i were running a high end store i do not want homeless of mentally challenged individuals potentially hanging out or taking abode in front of my place of business as this will certainly affect my bottom line.
                        Does this mean I dint give a rats hind parts about the homeless...far from it!
                        what it means is that there is a time and place for everything and the front of my high end shopping haen is not a place for the homeless.

                        I think Fuuma was on to something and i want him to elaborate further, in partly because I feel the same way.
                        I think society has become much more individualistic and highly narcissistic and as we move in that direction people have become less benevolent and Altruistic so there is less concern for the sick, weak and less fortunate among us.

                        I remember several Years ago a story of a politician in Japan who said the old should hurry up and die because the state doesn't have any money to take care of them. I see it everyday when people complain about people on welfare using up resources and depleting money collected from taxpayers without contributing.
                        One of the great barometers of measuring the heath of a society is the kind of care and attention given to the less fortunate among us.......when i compare now to 10 or 20 years ago. the level of selfishness and focus on the cult of the individual has never been more high.......
                        “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                        .................................................. .......................


                        Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

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                        • eleves
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 524

                          #27
                          Originally posted by HugAndWug View Post
                          it's weird how you can realize there's an issue and still be wrong.

                          like yeah people might not be comfortable with someone sleeping on their patio (i mean if anyone wants to on mine i'd just rather let them bum on my couch because my patio isn't really hospitable for humans) but there is a difference between not helping someone and actively harming them. i'm not throwing glass on my patio to make sure nobody tries to sleep on it but actively changing something to impair the lives of the homeless is fucking gross.

                          and besides you can't really do shit for most of the issues of homelessness. you can't solve work availability/drug issues/mental health/disability by giving them money or a coat. that's why there is government help in the first place and why it obviously needs to be expanded.
                          The best thing to happen to homelessness is trying to stop it in the first place, or trying to end it before it becomes long term. It is the precise reason that I'm so fond of the organizations who are trying to get the homeless community back into the workforce or education system. One can go on to argue about the limited amount of jobs also available but this whole thing is such a difficult situation to discuss because one things leads to another problem always. I've had some great conversations with homeless people, ones who actively want to do something or get their lives going again and on the other hand, I've had experience with clearly dangerous homeless people, or those who are too far gone as sad as it is to say. The little that I can donate doesn't make a dent in the monetary need of the programs that I like to support but at the same time, you really can't tell who is who sometimes and the government has their housing but it's never ideal. I'm sure something more will come of this, whenever the spikes get put up, there is always someone who will ask the source directly. I guess we'll see what Selfridges has to say
                          Originally posted by Faust
                          HOBBY?! HOBBY?!?!?!?!?! You are on SZ, buddy - it ain't no hobby, it's passion, religion, and unbounded cosmic love rolled into one.

                          Comment

                          • Fuuma
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 4050

                            #28
                            Maybe it is time for the torches and pitchforks to come out.

                            Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                            http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                            Comment

                            • Sombre
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 1291

                              #29
                              Originally posted by yubbermax View Post
                              What if they used something other than spikes that served the same purpose but was aesthetically pleasing?
                              Do you really think this has anything to do with the aesthetics of the spikes?

                              Originally posted by nvsnli View Post
                              It is not Selfridges responsibility to take care of the homeless or offer them anything really.

                              Everyone seem to act so pro-hobo but if they try to sleep in your backyard im quite sure that will become an issue.
                              Refraining from installing spikes outside their store is not “taking care of” or “offering” the homeless anything.

                              No, I wouldn’t appreciate a homeless person sleeping in my yard or on my porch. But rather than installing spikes to deter them, I’d call the authorities and let them deal with it.

                              Originally posted by eleves View Post
                              If a homeless person attacks a woman or child though, mental illness or not, it's still a dangerous situation. What else can an establishment do? This is a legitimate question. I'm trying my best to relay a neutral standpoint on this because I do think that we as a community have to try do what we can to help the less fortunate but at the same time, I want everyone to be safe. I've seen all sorts of these terrible conditions man, it's crazy. The spread of disease is so easily rampant in urban conditions, the safety of all people is an ever changing concern and clearly from a non ethical standpoint, Selfridges think that they're doing something right.
                              The safety and disease argument is just fear mongering. How much do you think the homeless really contribute to diseases in a city? You should be more afraid of your fellow commuters. And your point on violence is incorrect. I’m not saying they’re totally harmless, but they’re not really affecting numbers to the extent you think. In fact, they’re under-represented in the statistics.



                              Let’s call a spade a spade. This is a disgusting move by Selfridges, and like Shucks I won’t be giving them my money either. I think people are missing the message this is sending: store that sells $2,000+ shoes and coats can’t stand the sight of the homeless (who would love $2 coats and shoes) so much that they make it damn near impossible for them to sleep outside. It treats human beings as an eyesore to be removed from the décor rather than like, idk, human beings. It has nothing to do with any ethical move on Selfridges' part.

                              I can't believe some of these responses. The installation of the spikes is bad enough, but it's worse that people here are actually defending it.
                              An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

                              Originally posted by BBSCCP
                              I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

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                              • zamb
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2006
                                • 5834

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Sombre View Post
                                Let’s call a spade a spade. This is a disgusting move by Selfridges, and like Shucks I won’t be giving them my money either. I think people are missing the message this is sending: store that sells $2,000+ shoes and coats can’t stand the sight of the homeless (who would love $2 coats and shoes) so much that they make it damn near impossible for them to sleep outside. It treats human beings as an eyesore to be removed from the décor rather than like, idk, human beings. It has nothing to do with any ethical move on Selfridges' part.

                                I can't believe some of these responses. The installation of the spikes is bad enough, but it's worse that people here are actually defending it.
                                I think that we ought to reason with greater depth than this
                                there is no necessary correlation between installing the spikes and a conclusion that those who did it cannot stand the homeless.
                                I care about the homeless and the poor. I give tons of money to all different kind of causes for the poor and homeless, for children in schools and to different charities that help the less fortunate. However, If i was running a high end store where image and such are a part of my success in business i do not want homeless people making their beds in front of it. Simple.

                                there is a time and place for everything, and in front of a high end designer store is simply NOT the place for the homeless to sleep. ought to do more for these people so they don’t have to resort to make their beds wherever and whenever they see fit…......I think the greater issue is WHAT are we are Human beings and a society doing to help minimize these issues rather that what a store is doing about something that might make (some) shoppers think twice about coming to shop.
                                Last edited by zamb; 02-17-2015, 10:24 PM.
                                “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                                .................................................. .......................


                                Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

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