"The True Cost"

[Faust]

It just feels like examining the issue objectively now with where it's reached makes it feel insurmountable--how do you attempt to change a generation's mindset when if the worst garment manufacturing tragedies of all time (in Bangladesh) have happened within the last several years and people barely bat an eye in response?

How do you teach "ethical" consumption in a culture that idolizes feverish consumption for the sake of more, cheaper, and faster? How do you teach a culture the simple value of supply chain management?

It can be done through a relentless hammering in by the media. It will take a generation or two. Look at smoking and the organic food movement. The biggest obstacle here is that when it comes to smoking and food, it's YOUR white privileged livelihood, not that of some brown colored people in a faraway land.

[SafetyKat]

It can be done through a relentless hammering in by the media.

I think, if the likes of Zara and H&M keep expanding at the rate that you have mentioned, these behemoths will acquire some friends in big media (if they haven't already) to protect themselves from the oncoming PR nightmare. Just look at Fox news. Why would they talk about things like climate change or Corporate atrocities when their largest stakeholder is a billionaire oil tycoon?

The real fair/ethical trade, production, sourcing, advertising etc. movement will appear from consumer-generated media brought to you by the good old internet . Very grassroots no?

The biggest obstacle here is that when it comes to smoking and food, it's YOUR white privileged livelihood, not that of some brown colored people in a faraway land.

I couldn't agree more. What boggles my mind, especially after watching this documentary, is that the fast fashion industry CAN still be both ethical and extremely profitable, yet we choose to keep paying laborers in that faraway land pennies on the dollar for what? higher profit margins?

[ian+]

Doesn't the fast fashion concept (overbuying at the lowest prices) also apply to higher fashion buyers? Buy more than you need, lurk sales (private, public, promotions) to acquire pieces at the lowest possible price. I caught myself doing that a couple of years ago, then I realized that I didn't need the quantity I was after and that waiting to get the lowest price is excruciating for my inner well being.

[yubbermax]

Doesn't the fast fashion concept (overbuying at the lowest prices) also apply to higher fashion buyers? Buy more than you need, lurk sales (private, public, promotions) to acquire pieces at the lowest possible price. I caught myself doing that a couple of years ago, then I realized that I didn't need the quantity I was after and that waiting to get the lowest price is excruciating for my inner well being.

Maybe you can cop high fashion clothes at the same rate people buy H&M but I think there's a big difference between hunting for deals on high fashion (especially when buying used) vs buying whatever new shit Zara gets in every 2 weeks and discarding your previous $8 tees.

[Faust]

Doesn't the fast fashion concept (overbuying at the lowest prices) also apply to higher fashion buyers? Buy more than you need, lurk sales (private, public, promotions) to acquire pieces at the lowest possible price. I caught myself doing that a couple of years ago, then I realized that I didn't need the quantity I was after and that waiting to get the lowest price is excruciating for my inner well being.

We are having the same discussion a few posts up. It probably exists, but, again, in terms of scale it's a drop in a bucket compared to fast fashion consumption.

[ian+]

Maybe you can cop high fashion clothes at the same rate people buy H&M but I think there's a big difference between hunting for deals on high fashion (especially when buying used) vs buying whatever new shit Zara gets in every 2 weeks and discarding your previous $8 tees.

I am buying up to 5 pieces each season, I can't afford more.
I am not talking about hunting a deal because you can't afford the price and you like the piece a lot. That's different. I am referring to a large number of people who buy a ton of designer stuff at very low prices because they wait and wait and wait. This is evident in many fashion forums, youtube fashion related videos, etc. Do you think these people value the garments they purchase? All I see is the fast fashion concept applied (its consumerism side) on Saint Laurent, Rick Owens etc.

We are having the same discussion a few posts up. It probably exists, but, again, in terms of scale it's a drop in a bucket compared to fast fashion consumption.

it is, fewer people can purchase high fashion though. What I am trying to say it that if we forget the source of the product or the ethics behind its production, the vast majority of people consume via the same principles. They want a lot and they want it as cheap as possible. Our mentality is the problem in the first place.

[DudleyGray]

Is that desire to consume an instinctive thing, or is it a product of living in a consumerist, capitalist society? Part of me feels that it's a survival thing, like the need to feel prepared for situations, but lately I wonder if it isn't the result of pop culture as a sort of capitalist propoganda machine, of society telling a person through mass media who is important and worth their attention (basically, not you or your loved ones) and the person believing it and trying to become a "somebody" through consumption to play out one of the pop culture fantasies (dressing up like celebrities, buying equipment/supplies to be a creative, etc.).

[Faust]

I think the latter is part of the problem. But, I think it's always been that way. I mean, the wealthy have always consumed at a fast pace. Historically speaking, there were just very few of them. Now, everyone can consume often.

There is an endorphin rush with getting something new. I think that's a scientifically proven fact. There is a bit of fulfillment in shopping. It's not meaningful and it's not lasting. I remember reading an interview with Nigo, of Bape, where he said if he could not consume, he wouldn't know what to do with himself. Consumption gave him meaning.

People used to have other interests - like reading books or simply having hobbies. but it seems that fewer people have them now. Shopping as leisure is a relatively new concept. As I've said elsewhere the word "shopping" as an activity does not even exist in other languages.

[unwashed]

Maybe humans still have some hunterer-gatherer DNA. Like we used to when needed to survive. Our survival instincts have shifted from the need for necessary to unnecessary stuff. And we see psychological life threats instead of real life threats in the safe western environments. Like Faust mentioned about this guy who doesn't know what to do if he couldn't consume. This is purely a psychological issue he has.

If we as humans hunt and gather only what we need, demand would go down, prices would go down the overkill of production would go down and the environment and people would endure less stress.

Except that's apparently not in our nature anymore or hidden away in our unconscious. We take pride in owning much and showing off collections. This is maybe the contest mentality being imprinted like we see everywhere these days.

[MJRH]

Maybe humans still have some hunterer-gatherer DNA.

Well, hunter-gatherers were human, so one would hope... But you're right that nomadism makes hoarding a bit of a trick. The whole 'collecting as validation' biz reminded me of this:

"Potlatching was made illegal in Canada in 1884 in an amendment to the Indian Act[16] and the United States in the late 19th century, largely at the urging of missionaries and government agents who considered it "a worse than useless custom" that was seen as wasteful, unproductive, and contrary to 'civilized values' of accumulation."

[SafetyKat]

"Gap isn't cool anymore — here's its master plan to change that
http://www.businessinsider.com/gaps-...15-8?r=UK&IR=T


"...Now, America's largest apparel retailer is embarking on a turnaround plan to recapture cool customers by reinventing its supply chain to compete with brands like H&M, Zara, and Forever 21 while also overhauling marketing and making key hires."

"Getting faster is a core tenet of Gap's plan."


That's what we consumers want Gap inc, More khakis! Faster!

[dash]

Maybe humans still have some hunterer-gatherer DNA. Like we used to when needed to survive. Our survival instincts have shifted from the need for necessary to unnecessary stuff. And we see psychological life threats instead of real life threats in the safe western environments. Like Faust mentioned about this guy who doesn't know what to do if he couldn't consume. This is purely a psychological issue he has.

If we as humans hunt and gather only what we need, demand would go down, prices would go down the overkill of production would go down and the environment and people would endure less stress.

Except that's apparently not in our nature anymore or hidden away in our unconscious. We take pride in owning much and showing off collections. This is maybe the contest mentality being imprinted like we see everywhere these days.

Although an interesting though experiment - evolutionary psychology is not science.

[stagename]

Although an interesting though experiment - evolutionary psychology is not science.

What? There's even a dedicated journal. There are tons of respected evo psych profs/researchers, and it's a legitimate stream of research. Now if you have onto-epistemo issues with social sciences that's another topic.

EDIT: On the main subject, that was a depressing watch. Combined with my vegan friends who kept lecturing me on leather and we have a recipe for change...

[Arkady]

Seriously, start at Metaphors We Live By by Lakoff and Johnson and work up through all of embodied cognition theory.

Before embodied cognition and evolutionary psychology the predominant belief in cognitive psyche was that concepts inhere both in nature and structurally in the brain from birth -- try that one on for science.

[aussy]

a month late but

The Myth of the Ethical Shopper