The case for expensive clothes

[Faust]

In an ideal world, yes. But you give human beings too much credit. If we were all so responsible and reasonable, we wouldn't need not only H&M, but the government either.

[Arkady]

Argument collapsed immediately as you must always reach for tequila over beer.

[timm3h]

Faust -- fair. But then I'd wish to see at least some mention in the article that this shouldn't be a sustained strategy, sure it can be a preliminary measure to wean oneself off shopping addiction, but ultimately I feel everyone should veer towards simply thinking more and buying less shit.

Arkady -- you're a special case. Reach for the everclear instead :)

As an actual fashion thought, I wish I saw more A.F. Vandevorst. Was blown away by the latest collection.

[Fuuma]

Yohji hates fast fashion too:

Do you think the fashion world has changed a lot since you started?

Yes, fast fashion ruined everything. People waste clothing. They buy and buy, sometimes without even wearing it, and ultimately end up swinging it in the trash. It is pollution. Even some products that are used to make the clothes are toxic. There is already so much unnecessary waste in the world. How many planes are flying in the sky right now? The earth is becoming warmer. She is angry. We should really think about how to better manage our industry. I am not an environmentalist, but for some time I have felt very strongly that the earth is angry. We need everyone to calm down. Do not rush. It’s tiring – those people who always want more. Money is a boring thing, don’t you think? Something that is meant to bring comfort is making people uncomfortable.

Full interview:

http://blackparadox.us/post/130648628802/yohji-yamamoto-interview-2016-ss

[gregor]

i would imagine most people with a real passion for the art are rather saddened, if not angered by fast fashion's cheapening of something they hold dear. yohji is just a tad more philosophical.

[ronin]

I see more and more people around me act this way, or at least speak in such terms. The Atlantic article was even shared by a girl from my school who would only indulge in H&M and Topshop sprees when I met her two years ago. However, I must say I'm often baffled by the criteria by which they decide which piece of clothing is worthy of their euros, giving in either to ham-fisted green-/bluewashing, or to tacit peer pressure to get the hit purse / witty sweater of the season (depending on the social group they belong to) (why anyone would perceive an object which sole value is determined by trend as 'sustainable' is beyond me). I admit it's incredibly hard to see through marketing ploys, what with the opacity of the supply chain and general lack of trustworthy product information. I'm especially referring to the feeble value of labels like origin tags or eco certifications, upon which customers tend to rely on. On the latter issue, I've heard several classmates praise the attitude behind Bruno Pieter's Honest by two years ago; they have yet to buy anything by him. So I mostly see people put more money in clothes that are not necessarily of proportionally greater value (in terms of production impact and, sometimes, durability), which at least leads them to buy less, but also gives dishonest companies more unrequited opportunities to charge more for the same junk.

Of course, all of this happens in an upper-middle-class Parisian context. The few non-bourgeois country dwellers with whom I've had contact wouldn't begin to dream of buying anything that is not Tex by Carrefour (supermarket store brand, 1st purveyor of clothing items in France) or Decathlon (cheap sport clothes, 2nd purveyor of clothing in France), maybe La Redoute (mass market mail-/web-order) for a fancy treat. Even in a urban environment, I see many younger girls from less well-off backgrounds spend their meager allowance on schlock from the likes of H&M or ASOS, and even boast about the bargains they make on Aliexpress. Yet, I can think of at least two documentaries about the horrors behind fast fashion (featuring an undercover investigation in a sweatshop supplying major international brands, an interview about the environmental impact of dyes, and more) that aired on national French television and had very good audience ratings. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that the underlying mechanisms at work, appealing to basic instincts of reward/satisfaction and providing a short-term escape from an otherwise overpowering angst, are much stronger than the guilt induced by a glimpse of the underlying reality. Which is why I think the article is a step in the right direction, at is presents a well-worn argument under a relatively new light. As long as shopping will be seen as a hobby or a pleasure, all the horrifying documentaries in the world will change but little.

Thanks for the Yohji interview, by the way. Huge burst of laughter at the end. Although that might prove interesting.

[tjhalvy]

Totally agree with this thread.. So many people nowadays don't understand quality and the difference it makes in the long run. Fashion should be an investment in my mind.

[justin_bridou]

fast fashion is conditioning people to a rock-bottom price level

I think it is people salary which is conditioning people to a rock-bottom price level. What would you do Faust, if you'd have to live with <1500 euros per month (like 50% of the population in France, don't know for USA) and the average 2 kids spending? Would you still save money to buy some designer's "quality" clothing ?
For what I know, most people don't buy "a lot" of cheap clothing, they buy both less and cheap because they can't do anything else.

[Faust]

I think it is people salary which is conditioning people to a rock-bottom price level. What would you do Faust, if you'd have to live with <1500 euros per month (like 50% of the population in France, don't know for USA) and the average 2 kids spending? Would you still save money to buy some designer's "quality" clothing ?
For what I know, most people don't buy "a lot" of cheap clothing, they buy both less and cheap because they can't do anything else.

Listen, Bernie, we already had this conversation, and you are missing the fucking point AGAIN. But let me reiterate - if you can't afford it, you can't afford it - I am not talking about the poor. But there are millions of people who can but don't because there is always H&M. Affordability is partially a mental construct. I am sure absolutely everyone here knows people who will drop $100 going out in one night but would never for the life of them buy a $100 shirt. And they don't bother asking why they pay $4 for a cup of coffee every day, often twice a day, but consider a $100 shirt unaffordable.

[Lex1017]

Listen, Bernie, we already had this conversation, and you are missing the fucking point AGAIN. But let me reiterate - if you can't afford it, you can't afford it - I am not talking about the poor. But there are millions of people who can but don't because there is always H&M. Affordability is partially a mental construct. I am sure absolutely everyone here knows people who will drop $100 going out in one night but would never for the life of them buy a $100 shirt. And they don't bother asking why they pay $4 for a cup of coffee every day, often twice a day, but consider a $100 shirt unaffordable.

I wouldn't say I am broke, but most people close to me would probably think I am fucked if they knew what I spend on clothes considering the amount I make. I have adopted the mentality that if I want it, I should work for it. Instead of cumulatively spending 1500 - 3000 on bullshit clothes in a whole year equating to a closet full of shit, I save for a few larger things. If I want a 1200 dollar pair of shoes, I wait, I cut dumb costs (like 4 dollar coffees, lunch out, etc.), let the money stack, and voila. I am not growing anymore and I trust myself so I should be able to wear most of this stuff for the rest of my life. Sure there are some mis steps in my purchasing, but honestly 2-3 months without wearing something and seeing it again make me re think ways of wearing it so it works out.

[tjhalvy]

Listen, Bernie, we already had this conversation, and you are missing the fucking point AGAIN. But let me reiterate - if you can't afford it, you can't afford it - I am not talking about the poor. But there are millions of people who can but don't because there is always H&M. Affordability is partially a mental construct. I am sure absolutely everyone here knows people who will drop $100 going out in one night but would never for the life of them buy a $100 shirt. And they don't bother asking why they pay $4 for a cup of coffee every day, often twice a day, but consider a $100 shirt unaffordable.

well said. it's amazing the amount people spend on going out, but then surprised at prices in well designed, high quality apparel. they would rather pay $5 for a shirt at H&M, wear once, throw away, then buy something for $100 that is designed to last. It's an absolute waste of natural resources to buy a $5 shirt from H&M, Zara, etc.. and then throw it in a closet. the amount of labor, land use, water, etc.. that went into that shirt could be used to feed people. given, understand if someone can't afford more and needs to save the money to feed themselves and their family.

[justin_bridou]

Listen, Bernie, we already had this conversation, and you are missing the fucking point AGAIN.

Listen, Eugene, I think YOU ARE MISSING the fucking point again
(unlike you, i used the word "think" because i'm not so full of myself to believe that my voice is gospel)

And my name is Justin, just in case, as you seem to have some reading troubles. or maybe you were just trying to be insulting ?

i'm not talking abour the "poor", I'm talking about regular people. because when it comes to concern more than 50% of the population, it is the norm. And you/we are the exception, here.

I was replying to your sentence, that I recall again.

"fast fashion is conditioning people to a rock-bottom price level"

you re not talking about the "rich", you are talking about "people". And these > 50% of poor are also people and certainly represent the larger % of H&M sales. And again, i'm sure it is not the fast fashion that is conditioning their choices.

and to go further, I think Fuuma is preaching to the converted. there may be only a very minority here, buying clohting at H&M just because they're cheap. everyone here seems to spend a large some part of his time to look/hunt/buy designers clothing. so who is this post/thread targeting ?

[justin_bridou]

Instead of cumulatively spending 1500 - 3000 on bullshit clothes in a whole year equating to a closet full of shit, I save for a few larger things.

or you could also just spend <500$ on bullshit clothing. it may be bullshit, but it may last a few years though. By doing this, as you don't seem to earn that much, you would be able to save money to eat quality food (and live longer, and spend more time with your children and grandchildren) or travel around the world and enlarge your vision of the living experience by discovering different cultures, or go to "expensive" cultural manifestations and so on. maybe you are already doing this, but if not, and if you are close to be broke, it may be worth considering that option too

[ronin]

Even on a tight budget, there are always other options that H&M and the likes - namely, second-hand. It doesn't solve quality issues, but it is a way to avoid fueling overproduction. However, many people would rather have new clothes, especially in the poorest sectors of society (the childhood trauma of wearing your second cousin's decade-old threads dies hard); culture and education are indeed key factors here.

The loss of any mental connection between products and their origins (raw materials, added value) is all-pervading, and leads to viewing said items as disposable. And it seems pretty clear to me that the fast fashion system is, alongside others, responsible for this biais. Trying to reconnect the two ends of the chain, to look at the global picture instead of focusing on the consumption tip, doesn't require you to be rich. I've been going through a rough patch financially lately, buying clothes is out of the question until I'm on my feet again, but if I need something (e.g it's getting cold and I sold all of my good sweaters save one) I'd much rather spend the euros I could scrape at Emmaus than give them to any major conglomerate. It won't get me the best made, most interesting sweater (though I did see a nice Yohji suit the other day the treasures some people can throw to the bin...) but at least that way I don't feel like I'm treatring garments like tissues. It's also a good way to improve your patience and train your critical eye since there is no brand tag or visual merchandising to lean on.

I'm also amazed at the number of people who buy garbage while they could absolutely afford buying something else. I used to work in a pretty conservative business where my coworkers looked askance at how much I spent on my clothes. Of course they saw no difference between a Loro Piana sweater and one from, say, Massimo Dutti, to them I was just being shallow and a snob, so here again it is mostly about education (no one learns to look at clothes, especially with the prevalence of image over real objects).

[justin_bridou]

Even on a tight budget, there are always other options that H&M and the likes

ronin, thank you for the input. I always appreciate your posts, which are models of clarity according to my tastes.
I could not agree more. And my habits seems to be close to yours. I used to work in mathematical finance before realizing that I would certainly not like to spend my entire life with disciples of Ayn Rand, to explain it shortly. And I tried to change my habits, trying to match my behavior with my ideology. And it is a permanent struggle.
What i'm trying to say is that I feel very concerned by such topics.
Buying more expensive and quality ? why not. And I don't like to give my money to conglomerates too.
In France, as you seem to be french too, we can now find a lot of "new" designers/brands (call it as you like) who are putting forward the "made in --France, Italy, Spain etc ..." argument. Great, it helps to (partially) solve the issue of sweat shops. But if you look closer, you quickly realize that most of these young "designers" are issued from parisian well-established families, and are just perpetuating their families' models, though adapting to the current (partial) society's awareness.
Is is some kind of improvement ? certainly yes. But do I want to give my money to these families, and contribute to maintain the social hierarchy, even if it helps to restore the mental connection you're talking about ? I'm not sure.

As for some of the designers put forward in these forum, do I want to give >4000 euros to, let say saberi, for a jacket and help him to buy a new luxury car ? even if I can, again,i'm not sure. (for all lovers here, sorry, It is an example, I may be wrong, I have nothing in particular against this guy, and maybe he, or other designers here, are still broke and drive in a second hand car and eat nooddles on a daily basis just to live his passion of fashion. or maybe he is the good guy with high ethical values, who shares % of his benefits with his team in Portugal. if so, i sincerely apologize). again, i'm aware that it does not concern all the small designers mentioned here.

so what can I do ? I'm not aware of any simple and practical solution. i'm always trying to find regular true artisans (not only in fashion), who really need support and I like to be sure that through this support, i'm helping them to bring up their children and offer them some decent perspectives of life. as another example, even if I can, I never buy new cars, only second hands, because it is obvious that there are already far enough cars on this little planet.

and also, there is the issue of kids clothing ? what do you do guys ? can we really buy only "expensive" clothing for every age ? it seems that the only solution here is the second hand market

just to say that to my opinion, this simple argument of "buy more expensive clothing" is not totally convincing