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OP-ED: HOW GRAILED IS KILLING THE MENSWEAR AVANT-GARDE

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  • Ahimsa
    Vegan Police
    • Sep 2011
    • 1878

    OP-ED: HOW GRAILED IS KILLING THE MENSWEAR AVANT-GARDE

    OP-ED: HOW GRAILED IS KILLING THE MENSWEAR AVANT-GARDE
    by Eugene Rabkin

    "Buying and selling designer clothing by collectors and fashion enthusiasts on the Internet is a longstanding practice. Fashion forums like Supefuture, Styleforum, and StyleZeitgeist, where these enthusiasts tend to congregate are invaluable assets for hunting down that long-coveted piece, called “the holy grail” in the forum parlance.

    The forums, however, are, first and foremost, places for discussing fashion. They can be intimidating to the uninitiated because of the complex dynamics and the learning curve entering such places entails (this is why, despite their immense influence, you don’t see much about forums written in the fashion press). You either need to be knowledgeable about fashion or willing to take some heat during the learning process. But they also reward you with a wealth of information that enriches your understanding of fashion.

    One of the things you learn on the forums is provenance of the items in which you initially might have taken only cursory interest, their construction methods, dyeing techniques, and the nature of materials. Most importantly, you learn about the designers’ ethos, philosophy, and his or her cultural influences. That is what gives clothing meaning and provides an emotional connection between the maker and the wearer. In the world full of stuff, forums give enthusiasts a reason to buy without feeling like a mere consumer. Remember, every decision to buy something is also a decision not to buy something else.

    Enter Grailed, a website for buying and selling clothes, largely menswear, that at its core works like eBay. It is founded by people who learned the ropes from watching the classifieds sections of the aforementioned forums. Grailed is easy, because it necessitates none of the effort that learning the dynamics of a fashion forum does. For example, on StyleZeitgeist, we require members to have a one hundred post minimum before they are allowed to buy and sell in the classifieds. This is done in order to separate the true fashion enthusiasts from those who merely want to wear “cool shit” and from those who make a living by flipping fashion. None of this happens on Grailed, which is designed purely for buying and selling. A harmless idea on the surface, but by dispensing with discussion Grailed turns all fashion into mere commodity.

    Fashion does not simply sell garments but also intrinsic attributes that make them desirable enough to demand a high price tag, whether it’s Japanese selvage denim or a Boris Bidjan Saberi leather jacket. Grailed devalues this by turning itself into a supermarket. That is a serious problem for the menswear avant-grade, which is predicated on creating a connection between the maker and the wearer. Without this connection, a garment is just a garment. And if this is bad for the avant-garde, it will sooner or later be bad for the rest of fashion. Because I know for a fact that members from mainstream fashion design teams, from the mighty Chanel down to the high street All Saints and via the contemporary brands like Helmut Lang and Rag & Bone feed off the ideas of the avant-garde designers in order to simplify them and dish them out to the public."

    Full article on StyleZeitgeist Magazine
    StyleZeitgeist Magazine | Store
  • byhand
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 273

    #2
    Grailed isn't destroying anything. I've had plenty of experiences on grailed with both buyers and sellers who have been quite knowledgeable about the items being sold, but that's irrelevant. Grailed is a marketplace, not a forum. I've had more interesting conversations with sellers on grailed than I have had with salesclerks in stores. I've also had interesting conversations with potential buyers who clearly have no chance of buying the item being sold but still appreciate its quality. Lowballers are easily ignored. I think grailed does what it is designed to do perfectly.

    Tons of crap is being sold there, but a user can easily set up a "feed" that weeds out the supremes of the world.

    Plenty of items being sold on grailed are selling for good money, where the buyer and seller have a similar idea about value and reach an agreement on price. I think if anything grailed highlights the sheer volume of "fashion" being created today, mountains of it crap, a lot of it crap posing as something more and some of it glorious. It can all be found on grailed.

    I thank grailed for allowing me to find a pair of L'Maltieri pants that I have been hunting for years, and, yes, I paid real money for them and even had an interesting conversation with the seller during the process of making the transaction.

    Comment

    • blackswan
      Member
      • Feb 2011
      • 45

      #3
      If you can handle the psychological deterioration caused by grailed kids,the low ballers ,the scammers ,the buyers who first ask you tones of questions and then offers you 100$ for a 3k jacket and last but not least ,the irresponsible users who don't pay the accepted offers ,then yes ,Grailed is a good place to sell once in a while clothes from your wardrobe.Grailed for sure is killing eBay ,not sure if can win this battle, as the updated 10% grailed fees are much higher than the latest ebay promotions with only 4% paypal fees listing items in several countries.
      Last edited by blackswan; 05-22-2016, 06:12 AM.

      Comment

      • nyarkies
        Member
        • Feb 2012
        • 69

        #4
        Originally posted by blackswan View Post
        If you can handle the psychological deterioration caused by grailed kids,the low ballers ,the scammers ,the buyers who first ask you tones of questions and then offers you 100$ for a 3k jacket and last but not least ,the irresponsible users who don't pay the accepted offers ,then yes ,Grailed is a good place to sell once in a while clothes from your wardrobe.Grailed for sure is killing eBay ,not sure if can win this battle, as the updated 10% grailed fees are much higher than the latest ebay promotions with only 4% paypal fees listing items in several countries.

        Those problems are there on eBay as well. Worse because you have to relist the item for unpaid listings with eBay and the seller cannot leave the buyer any negative feedback at all. As far as fees goes, grailed charges you around 9% total that is inclusive of paypal fees only when it sells. Ebay charges 10% when the item sells plus 4% paypal fees.

        Comment

        • byhand
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 273

          #5
          Yes, the fee on grailed is currently cheaper than ebay.

          I don't recall ever having an interesting conversation with a buyer or seller on ebay. I think ebay is much more overtly about commerce than grailed. Grailed fosters the ability to have a conversation in a way that ebay doesn't. There is no screening for membership on grailed, but the fact that it is designed as a niche marketplace creates an environment that provides ample opportunity to interact with likeminded folks who mostly seem to have a knowledge about the items being sold... even if they don't have the bank account to support building a wardrobe from the marketplace.

          Jerks can be found everywhere. Nothing unique about idiots making an appearance on grailed. Maybe I've been lucky not to have been swindled, and, sure I've had brief conversations with bargain hunters, but that minimal annoyance in no way eclipses the boon of having a fairly large marketplace where some seriously fine and rare clothing can be found for a fair price.
          Last edited by byhand; 05-22-2016, 10:04 AM.

          Comment

          • blackswan
            Member
            • Feb 2011
            • 45

            #6
            i totally disagree, as i had many similar bad situations in the past.I just recall one conversation with a buyer offering me 35$ for a shearling leather jacket and when i kindly declined his offer he started calling me a d*ck ,not to mention noone reads your descriptions as well.I believe ratio on grailed is like 70% low ballers,15% reasonable low ballers,10% good buyers,5% scammers.Ebay fees are zero, only 4% paypal fees apply if you list your item on a different ebay than the one you're registered.

            Comment

            • jap808
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 376

              #7
              Originally posted by blackswan View Post
              Ebay fees are zero, only 4% paypal fees apply if you list your item on a different ebay than the one you're registered.
              This sounds like a interesting interesting trick: would you please exploit?
              Thankd

              Comment

              • lowrey
                ventiundici
                • Dec 2006
                • 8383

                #8
                Originally posted by byhand View Post
                Maybe I've been lucky
                sounds so, I've probably had more agonizing and miserable experiences selling there for a few months (~10 items) than I've had for 10 years and hundreds of items on SZ. Lowballing, sending offers or agreeing to a sale and then disappearing, asking endless questions after making an offer etc. It took me 36 messages back and forth to sell one of the few items I've ever sold there. The market is stagnant on SZ too or Ebay too, but I've sold things reasonably and at least I don't need to answer meaningless questions, get stood up or listen to 10% offers by some 15 year old tire kickers.

                From a buyers perspective it can of course be a good platform, but as a phenomenon, I don't think it's doing any good for the market.
                "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

                STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

                Comment

                • byhand
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 273

                  #9
                  The one thing about grailed that can make the process of selling annoying is that most buyers wait for price drops no matter what the starting price is. It can become a waiting game of how low can it go. Some watching the item then get pissed when the seller deletes the listing. I'm still getting inquiries for a listing I deleted months ago. There were over 50 people watching it. I did reduce the price twice and then decided that I wasn't interested in selling it for fewer dollars than my last reduced price. I let it linger for a few weeks as it attracted more watchers and then deleted. People act as if I have done something to them by pulling the listing. I see it as the market not wanting the item for a price that would satisfy me, so I pull the listing. I don't blame that on grailed.

                  This does make me be a more careful retail consumer. I don't typically buy clothing, at least not expensive clothing, that I don't plan on keeping for the rest of my life or at least wear until it is no longer wearable. This approach keeps me away from fleeting trends and having to deal with selling clothing on the resale market, but I still have a pile of clothing to sell from my more reckless days.

                  No polyurethane coated jeans for me.

                  Comment

                  • blackswan
                    Member
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 45

                    #10
                    Originally posted by jap808 View Post
                    This sounds like a interesting interesting trick: would you please exploit?
                    Thankd
                    it's a promotion valid until 31/8 .You just sign in on a different ebay and list your item

                    Comment

                    • Slin
                      Junior Member
                      • Mar 2016
                      • 4

                      #11
                      Here, Grailed CEO's interview :

                      "Plenty of people are willing to pay a bit above retail for convenience and availability."


                      I will like to understand a interesting interview, with problems that you talk...

                      Comment

                      • lowrey
                        ventiundici
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 8383

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Slin View Post
                        Even Balenciaga and Stella McCartney want to get in on the menswear pie
                        lolwut
                        "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

                        STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

                        Comment

                        • oulipien
                          Member
                          • Feb 2016
                          • 31

                          #13
                          For example, on StyleZeitgeist, we require members to have a one hundred post minimum before they are allowed to buy and sell in the classifieds. This is done in order to separate the true fashion enthusiasts from those who merely want to wear “cool shit” and from those who make a living by flipping fashion. None of this happens on Grailed, which is designed purely for buying and selling. A harmless idea on the surface, but by dispensing with discussion Grailed turns all fashion into mere commodity.
                          The claim about SZ isn't true, incidentally. I've bought clothes here and I have under 25 posts here [edit: far under 25, just 11]. It's true: I can't *sell* anything here, but I can certainly buy things (and I've bought things from other posters in this thread; thanks lowrey!). And---a further incidental, possibly a perverse incentive---since no amount of *reading* SZ will enable me to post classifieds, even though presumably that's a good way to get the relevant knowledge, my decision to actually start posting is driven largely by my desire to be able to post a classified, for a single solitary garment that I think will be more appreciated here than on Grailed (watched by 18, bought by none). I don't think that tells *against* Grailed; I think it likely tells for the niche-ness of the article or possibly for the lesser financial power of Grailed users as a mass. (Maybe all those 171 people who wanted that parka *do* live off their parents' allowance. Maybe they have champagne tastes and tap water finances. Is there something wrong with being able to appreciate what you can't afford? Maybe none of them ever wanted to buy it at all, but did like looking at it: given that Faust says that the thing belongs in a museum, institutions that tend to be finicky about people handling their stuff, he ought to appreciate that, not decry it.) I don't think that tells for SZ, in particular, either.

                          You know where else, by the way, I can buy articles of high fashion as if they were a mere commodity*? That's right: any brick-and-mortar store, or any store with a web presence, or ebay, or ... had I but the budget, I could walk down the street to The Archive and buy any number of things in sublime ignorance of their provenance, their designers' philosophy, broader cultural context, whatever. I can't really see how the fashion avant-garde is remotely predicated on any actual connection between the maker and the wearer. I feel no connection to, say, Koeun Park, *personally*.

                          Faust can't even seem to make up his mind about what drives this stuff: if it's true that "Fashion does not simply sell garments but also intrinsic attributes that make them desirable enough to demand a high price tag" (sentence construction a little hard to follow here---fashion sells intrinsic attributes?), then the connection between the maker and the wearer is effectively inconsequential: an *intrinsic* attribute of the *garment* by definition isn't a relational attribute between two people. If anything, Grailed precisely exalts, not devalues, this, by focusing one's attention on the garment and its attributes. (In true "Postulated Author" style I'm more on the "attributes" side of things, anyway; the intentional fallacy is over-invoked and ill-understood but there really is a fallacious style of reasoning. Weg von Biografie; zu den Sachen selbts, to badly repurpose a slogan.)

                          There's a weird presumption in this piece (and one can find it scattered about here elsewhere, though I confess I'm not currently moved to find other instances) that the people on Grailed clearly do not know anything yet/at all, because if they did they would be, instead, on SZ (or superfuture or SF or whatever). (Nevermind that several people are on Grailed and one or more of the aforementioned!) Another possibility is that people on Grailed have their fashion shit together from ... other sources entirely. It's conceivable! Maybe they read SZ-the-magazine but never cared for SZ-the-forum. (I personally find the forum off-putting. Why should I be required to "take some heat"? Is this a frat, that has to haze people?)

                          * not sure in what sense the term is meant, tbh

                          Comment

                          • mrbeuys
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2008
                            • 2313

                            #14
                            You misspelled "selbst".
                            Let's see if you can take the heat...
                            Hi. I like your necklace. - It's actually a rape whistle, but the whistle part fell off.

                            Comment

                            • SafetyKat
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 169

                              #15
                              Originally posted by oulipien View Post
                              I can't really see how the fashion avant-garde is remotely predicated on any actual connection between the maker and the wearer. I feel no connection to, say, Koeun Park, *personally*.
                              From what I understand, the connection you mentioned is usually refering to two ajor things. First, the level of individual care and effort are put into individual garments since many of the designers here include a lot of production in-house or artisanal mills and workshops. For example, Boris Saberi personally inspects and stamps his approval on each garment before its sent out to the sales floor. He's not rushing products as fast as he can from production to retail, its a personal consideration.

                              The other, a designer that can be considered a niche label dedicates their work to very specific ideas and concepts as opposed to catering to a mass audience. A Yohji shirt will feature a certain, cut, drape, fabric composition, and move according to his specifications, from his mind to the wearer. Its a unique creation.

                              If you're looking for a more interpersonal relationship with the designer, might I suggest strolling into one of their fine establishments yelling that you'll "take the lot of it!!" I'd imagine you'd get a nice letter at least.

                              Comment

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