At Joyce With Dries Van Noten and Rick Owens

[Faust]

Worth reading!

"While the conglomerates often become scapegoats for an industry under pressure, all you can really blame them for is living up to market demand. In an insatiable industry of consumers with the attention spans of a bored teenager, we pretty much only have ourselves to thank for creating a climate where over-worked and over-sold designers end up at the mercy of the system, with little creative freedom."

https://i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/shopping-the-future-with-joyce-hong-kongs-most-forward-thinking-retailer

[zamb]

"There were pioneers in the 90s, who would take big chances on designers and would make those designers. And there are very few of them left. It makes me wonder where those pioneers are now? These were mavericks, who invested their soul and money and integrity.
*THIS*

[zamb]

"In a world where there's a lot of product and brand and movement of creative directorship, being small and having a focus on detail, and being dedicated to what you do, has real value to it now.


Its really good to hear veterans talk and to see that there are things essential to fashion that are really missing from it today.

[Anton]

"There were pioneers in the 90s, who would take big chances on designers and would make those designers. And there are very few of them left. It makes me wonder where those pioneers are now? These were mavericks, who invested their soul and money and integrity.
*THIS*

I see many articles mentioning that there barely any risk taking in fashion right now, and this article is another one. It's mentioned again and again about the "old days" and how great the fashion industry was, the Robbie Snelders interview by Laura Praet was another interview where it felt that people who were a part of the fashion industry in those days feel that there is something lacking right now.

My question is what exactly happened? I understand that the new generation is different and products are consumed differently than in the past. With that being said, it seems that many people are missing these elements that designers, photographers, models etc' keep mentioning. I'm not entirely sure how to phrase my questions, but what happened and who's controlling the industry in such a way that we see this change, or is it more of a cultural thing rather than specific to this industry.

I come from the music business and You can find similarities to what is described in fashion. Ibiza is becoming yet another horrendous "VIP" place and clubs(like Space) are either disappearing or becoming yet another horrible place emphasizing what is trendy right now. Yet it seems that the "underground" is having somewhat of a slow Renaissance and many people are rejecting that culture(not enough but something is starting). Is this something we can expect to happen in the fashion industry?

[Faust]

I see many articles mentioning that there barely any risk taking in fashion right now, and this article is another one. It's mentioned again and again about the "old days" and how great the fashion industry was, the Robbie Snelders interview by Laura Praet was another interview where it felt that people who were a part of the fashion industry in those days feel that there is something lacking right now.

My question is what exactly happened? I understand that the new generation is different and products are consumed differently than in the past. With that being said, it seems that many people are missing these elements that designers, photographers, models etc' keep mentioning. I'm not entirely sure how to phrase my questions, but what happened and who's controlling the industry in such a way that we see this change, or is it more of a cultural thing rather than specific to this industry.

I come from the music business and You can find similarities to what is described in fashion. Ibiza is becoming yet another horrendous "VIP" place and clubs(like Space) are either disappearing or becoming yet another horrible place emphasizing what is trendy right now. Yet it seems that the "underground" is having somewhat of a slow Renaissance and many people are rejecting that culture(not enough but something is starting). Is this something we can expect to happen in the fashion industry?

Thank you for taking the time to ask an interesting question. If only other members would do the same instead of whining about how the forum culture is declining while doing nothing about it.

The shortest answer to your question, what happened? is MONEY happened. Fashion in the 90s was what I call the playground for the weird and the wonderful - its producers AND its consumers were mostly either the creative class or patrons who were at least aesthetically daring. These people still exist, of course, but since 2000 when LVMH and KERING have embarked on a massive effort of buying up luxury goods companies and marketing to the masses. As a result there was a huge influx of people who had the cash but who were not ready to buy interesting fashion. This lead to two things - A) Independent designers without a cult following could not compete for the fashion consumers' money, and B) mass consumer tastes increasingly began to dictate what's being a produced. If Dior can sell 1 million polo shirts, they are going to make them with or without the designer's consent.

Designers in the 90s were not expected to make $$$$$, they were happy to make a living doing what they love and having creative freedom. But now LVMH can buy the likes of Raf and offer them millions of dollars. Who wouldn't take it?

You see the same parallels in music according to your example. If Ibiza club owners can make money off of pairing rich douche bags with Russian hookers, they will do it. And if they can tell Richie Hawtin that they will fly him in on a charter plane and pay him $30,000 a night, he'll take it. Who wouldn't?

Anyway, there is an article in all of this - I'm going to go think about it.

[Anton]

Faust, thank you for your comment.

While reading Dana Thomas's book "Gods and Kings" I got the feeling that what was changing is the shift towards a more business oriented management where it's mostly about the sales and growth. From your comment I understand that I was right, and the major change with these large groups simply buying "everything" is what caused this thing. I wonder if that can be fixed? Designers like Rick Owens, Ann Demeulemeester, Dries Van Noten and others can't compete with a huge house like Dior yet they still manage to have a successful business and even gain popularity, I might even say that many of their designs and general aesthetic influence the bigger houses. What interests me, apart from the change is the business aspect of things, is also the culture change(if that's the correct term).

To me it appears that everything is much more strict these days, almost to a corporate level. Designers seem to be much more business oriented rather than being artists(not disrespecting their talent in any way). Not to sound too cliche but where are the wild parties, the social gathering, the fashion designers mixed with musicians and models and directors etc' etc' it's almost seems that this bohemian scene is gone or much more strict(again, trying not to sound too cliche but i hope you get the point).

Regarding the music industry, many DJ's and musicians don't take many of these shows. Richie has his own line in Ibiza, Klock, Dettmann and the ostgut ton crew generally seem to keep it "underground" like many other DJs. There is somewhat of "join forces" movement where people don't want the VIP crap and are willing to pay just to avoid that scene. Especially with clubs like Berghain, Block, Rebel Rebel etc' where you can't take photos anymore and its a very freeing environment from the instant gratification culture and the "look at me" posts on FB. Obviously it's not enough but it's a good beginning and hopefully we'll see more of it. Unfortunately it does come with a large amount of pretentious idiots, being "underground" just for the sake of "underground".

[Faust]

Unfortunately, all those designers have already started and gained a cult following before or in the early days of corporate take over. Rick was the last one who squeezed in before the door was shut, and who knows where he'd be without Anna Wintour's patronage at the turn of the Century.

Well, there is Vetements today, so I don't know what that says exactly. Of course Demna is already at Balenciaga (Kering), and they'll probably fold Vetements in a few years once the hypebeasts move on. Aitor Throup is at G-Star. JW Anderson (a questionable talent to begin with) at LVMH. Gareth Pugh has faded away. Etc.

And designers party with celebrities every day, just look at shit like Refinery29 or WWD party pages or whatever. The relationship between fashion figures and cultural figures is stronger than ever, with celebs of all stripes chasing designers and vice versa. Whether it's bohemia, well... where is bohemia these days?

[Anton]

Bohemia is hard to find indeed these days, when I think of that connection from the past what comes to mind is places like The Loft, Paradise Garage and other similar places. Unfortunately very rare these days.

Thanks for the answers.

[zamb]

I see many articles mentioning that there barely any risk taking in fashion right now, and this article is another one. It's mentioned again and again about the "old days" and how great the fashion industry was, the Robbie Snelders interview by Laura Praet was another interview where it felt that people who were a part of the fashion industry in those days feel that there is something lacking right now.

My question is what exactly happened? I understand that the new generation is different and products are consumed differently than in the past. With that being said, it seems that many people are missing these elements that designers, photographers, models etc' keep mentioning. I'm not entirely sure how to phrase my questions, but what happened and who's controlling the industry in such a way that we see this change, or is it more of a cultural thing rather than specific to this industry.

I come from the music business and You can find similarities to what is described in fashion. Ibiza is becoming yet another horrendous "VIP" place and clubs(like Space) are either disappearing or becoming yet another horrible place emphasizing what is trendy right now. Yet it seems that the "underground" is having somewhat of a slow Renaissance and many people are rejecting that culture(not enough but something is starting). Is this something we can expect to happen in the fashion industry?

A LOT HAS HAPPENED.

Fashion like any other industry is a product of its times and the times we are living in really sucks.

1. There used to be less designers, or less people parading themselves around calling themselves designers. There is a glut of inexperienced, untalented people in the industry now, that neither has the technical expertise or the vision to produce good work. they are made famous on hype and connections and their clothes dominate the market in a way that should not have happened.

2. Fashion has become too fast, with designers and creators having to do too much to stay in business. There is almost little or no time to really think about ones ideas and really develop them in an innovative way.

3. The culture that made for great designers seem to have been completely lost.
John Galliano once said he used to go to thrift stores, buy corsets and pick them apart to see how they were made in Victorian times. Alexander McQueen was a trained tailor. Ann D. said she once made a shoe heel sample herself because no matter how much she explained it to the manufacturers they could not get it right. Now most designers make a sketch and pass it on to the production team or the sample maker in order to get the product done. This has to change, and designers go back to developing samples themselves in order to create a unique product.

4. I also think the middle class which really supports fashion on a scale that makes it viable has seriously eroded, there seem to be less money being spent on innovative designers nowadays. Fast fashion and knock off companies are the ones who seem to be making the most money by making the least amount of investment and taking less risk.

5. There are very few forward thinking stores anymore. There was a time when buyers had great relationship with customers, and they would buy a collection from a newer/ innovative designer, knowing that they could introduce it to their customers and the brand would sell because the buyer understood the aesthetic taste of his/ her client base and the customer trusted the word of the buyer and the buyer introduced and helped to develop designers. it doesn't seem t happen much anymore and there are few stores left who support up and comers without trying to exploit them into shitty agreements

6. I think the internet has been both a blessing and a curse to fashion. it has provided a great amount of exposure for a lot of brands and allow a reach across the globe that may not have been otherwise possible, but i also think it has allowed people to become Jaded, Cynical and have even devalued the work of some great people in a way that is bad for the industry overall........

7. Faust has already touched on how Big Money has corrupted fashion, so i will not even go into that.....

[Anton]

Interesting points;
1) I definitely agree, and I think that this is true for all "creative" professions, whether it's fashion designers, musicians, producers, mix engineers etc'. From my experience, today the most important thing is being perceived as one, meaning you don't actually need to posses the various skills in a profession but rather have people see you as a "designer"(or anything else). Know the right people, wear the right thing, talk the right way and all of that.

2) Is this something that you think happened because of companies being taken over by large groups or rather because of the consumer culture these days. Might be a combination of both also....

3) This is an interesting point, and also connects to the first point you made about skills. Why did this change? or rather why wouldn't a designer want to be a part of the process...

4) I also think that for many people it's very hard to find something worth putting so much money into, especially when it seems that prices are going up, quality is going down and it's hard to find an interesting style that fits you when everybody got their hand on everything because of ease of access and knock off brands.

[k3mist]

What we are lacking is not highly creative designers or risk taking buyers. There is an over saturation of designers and artists in this generation but I dont think that is the problem either. What we are really lacking is the audience. An audience with a high level of connoisseurship is just as important as the artist. Forget the pricing, high or low, when the audience understands how a certain object is made, he/she instills their own value. We lack an audience that knows how to instil a value based on construction and materials because of the lack of connoisseurship/understanding.

[Faust]

What we are lacking is not highly creative designers or risk taking buyers. There is an over saturation of designers and artists in this generation but I dont think that is the problem either. What we are really lacking is the audience. An audience with a high level of connoisseurship is just as important as the artist. Forget the pricing, high or low, when the audience understands how a certain object is made, he/she instills their own value. We lack an audience that knows how to instil a value based on construction and materials because of the lack of connoisseurship/understanding.

I don't think we lack the audience per se. It's just that the mass audience far outweighs the discerning audience. But it was always thus. The audience for high-end apparel today is far vaster than ever before. The problem might be acquiring new audience for fashion with capital "F", and maybe that's what you are talking about. When all kids read on Dazed are about Vetements and Off White and fucking Yeezy, yeah, we have a problem.

[jap808]

Bohemia is hard to find indeed these days, when I think of that connection from the past what comes to mind is places like The Loft, Paradise Garage and other similar places. Unfortunately very rare these days.

Thanks for the answers.

Bohemia may be in Berlin, this days... In Berghain, to be specific.

Because you can go there with your €3.000 avant-garde outfit just bought at ****lands and still feel a bit envious for a 30-something guy/girl who is wearing his forth-hand tee, stocks and beaten-up shoes with a real attitude.
And that's nice!

[Anton]

I don't think we lack the audience per se. It's just that the mass audience far outweighs the discerning audience. But it was always thus. The audience for high-end apparel today is far vaster than ever before. The problem might be acquiring new audience for fashion with capital "F", and maybe that's what you are talking about. When all kids read on Dazed are about Vetements and Off White and fucking Yeezy, yeah, we have a problem.

@Faust: The audience is definitely much vaster than what it was, but do you think that this also in a way caused a reaction for designers where they play this role of the "unreachable" designer, no interviews, very secretive etc'. It's nice and somewhat intriguing while building some sort of a cult status when it's a select few(like Paul Harnden for example). Nowdays it seems that many want to go that route simply because of the mass demand, to appear as a counteract when in reality this is again the "popular" thing to do. There is no "freedom" in a way, everything gotta be calculated to appear a certain way....at least that's what I notice.
You mentioned Yeezy, and Kanye immediately fits this "I'm a creative", suddenly he cares where the table stands, and he throws some pretentious horrible clothing on himself and he declares himself as this amazing designer and people are buying, yet anybody with a brain can see that it's all a show almost like playing a character. He is a great producer in music, and had some very successful albums, wouldn't he be able to have more successful clothing line without all the bullshit and acting around it?

Bohemia may be in Berlin, this days... In Berghain, to be specific.

Because you can go there with your €3.000 avant-garde outfit just bought at ****lands and still feel a bit envious for a 30-something guy/girl who is wearing his forth-hand tee, stocks and beaten-up shoes with a real attitude.
And that's nice!

@Jap808, I'll disagree with you here. I don't think that Berghain is bohemia at least not any more. Musically it's still most of the time fantastic, DJs can be very eclectic and go completely left field in a set. With that being said, culturally it's very pretentious and wanna be underground while emphasizing very specific aspects of culture. You really have to fit their "narrative", to be honest it's not only Berghain but Berlin generally.

[Faust]

Oh, I wasn't talking about CDiem, Harnden, and Poell - they are half-a-blip when it comes to FASHION. I was thinking Yamamoto, Kawakubo, Demeulemeester, Simons, McQueen, etc. People who do catwalk shows and have a fairly big following and actually participate in the fashion conversation at large.

The holy artisanal trio is a very different and specific story. They went through the Armand Hadida school of "don't walk and I'll do the rest." It was a concerted effort on his part, because he early on figured out that L'Eclaireur was becoming a store towards which other stores looked. So he created this mythology, and in return he got a) exclusive in Paris b) guaranteed early deliveries, and so on. All parties benefited. But that game is over, except for Paul Harnden who really doesn't give a shit about fashion. Poell has lost - no one but the Chinese care, he hasn't produced a collection in seven years, and his right hand has left. Altieri has lost - he's alienated enough people, myself included, with his pseudo-artistic affectations. No wonder no one showed up to his recent event in New York.

My only problem with Yeezy is that West hogs the spotlight. He is the Trump of fashion, and the fashion press loves him because he gets the clicks and clicks get the advertising dollars. So, they write about him, instead of writing about fashion.