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Thread: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

  1. #81
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="Fuuma"]

    [quote user="Faust"]Ok, here is what I thought about when I said that this is pathetic. I am sick and tired of our culture being gripped by postmodern notions of wallowing in bad taste, of camp (with very few exceptions), of self-deprecating humor, of that irony-with-a-smirk, of rebellion-as-embracing-consumer culture, of that it's-so-bad-its-good, of mediocrity-as-the-norm, and Rei has been embodying all that in the past years. This collaboration only epitomizes that. "Look at me, I am doing the same as Madonna, but I am smart and artistic, so you KNOW I am doing it with the sense or irony, wink-wink." Don't make me puke, Rei. Oh, too late... Rei is the new Vivienne Westwood. You heard it here first.
    [/quote]




    But she's also doing the same as V&R (Uniqlo) and other labels that, like them or not, are not to be equated with Madonna, why take her as an example? Uniqlo is the nexus where Gap meets H&M yet I see you supporting their slim fit jeans, while I wear their plain white tees. I'm also not sure why you would conflate bad taste with camp, self-deprecating humour and irony, as those are distinct but interrelated notions, are you saying this collaboration meets the criteria to be qualified as any and all of these? Might you be so passionately opposed to this very type of design/mass marketing marriage that your words went beyond your thoughts?




    The way I see it CdG is, at least partially, rooted in meaningful collaborations where they disorient us by re-inventing what we saw as crystallized. Truth be told, this H&M thing isn?t one of them; on the other hand it is under the H&M name and more of a guest-design, one shot deal, aimed at exchanging some of the CdG mystique in return of worldwide exposure. Why not see it as a publicity coup that may result in interesting clothes. Modernist interior designers tackling the challenge of low cost furniture have given us some of the most fascinating 60s and 70s design, I?d like to see more fashion designers doing the same thing. I am, of course, worried that by lowering price all we?re doing is furthering a feeling of disposability but this is IMHO, one of the greatest challenges we?re facing now anyway; we?re not turning objects into fetishes but their consumption, a fleeting and ultimately unsatisfying feeling if there ever was one.





    [/quote]



    I said exactly what I meant. Great, if you think Rei belongs where V&R does, I don't see how we differ. Or would you maintain that V&R has intergrity? This collaboration is exactly in line with her stance - she thinks she is the Andy Warhol of fashion, so all the terms stand.



    I am afraid your last point is wishful thinking - H&M is the definition of disposable consumption. Where are the V&R+H&M garments now? Who has them?

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  2. #82

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    Maybe the point is that no designer like Kawabuko has gone in this direction. I feel like her integrity as a designer is in her saying, "You've put me in this box, now I'm going to break out of it."



    While I have a feeling that I'm going to detest what actually comes out of the marriage between the two, this is much more important than Lagerfeld's collaboration for the simple reason that despite how influential and inspiring Kawabuko is, not that many people outside the fashion industry seem to know or care about her. While I may not enjoy her decision or respect the outcome of it, I feel like it makes sense within the pattern of CDG.


  3. #83

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="zamb"]

    rteally have any kind of appreciation for Good design and quality should not want to be associated with. Does anyone have any kind of integrity anymore?




    if Rei Believes that this kind of Fashion is Acceptable, why did dhe run an exclusive brand for all these years?




    While we can all agree that she has been successful, maybe in some ways she thinks she has failed. In the sense that, she now has less years as a designer infront of of her as a designer than she has already done and she hasnt recieved the kind of acclaim she had hoped for, or at least desires to achieve. So now, she is forgoing all her principles, that once seems so uncompromising, in an attemp to broaden her name and influence beyond fashion insiders and avante garde intellectuals........................



    [/quote]Wow -- talk about elitism. People who can't afford designer clothing can't appreciate good design -- because they can't afford it? What?

    That's ridiculous. So is the notion of a "vision" being "compromised." Why isn't it the other way around -- her vision being expanded, broadened? Clothes are clothes, and everyone wears them. If more and more people are exposed to well-designed clothes, this can only be a good thing. Yes, H&M's quality is pretty much piss-poor. But its designs are stylish, and the "runway-trickle-down-effect" is a good (and necessary) thing.



    Personally, I would LOVE to see more established, respected designers tackling cheap, affordable clothing. Everyone seems to think that this is a walk in the park -- a sell-out, an easy grab for cash. From my point of view, it's an honorable challenge, something new and fresh, and something that is sorely lacking in our marketplace.


  4. #84
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="Johnny"][quote user="Faust"][quote user="Johnny"]


    [quote user="Faust"]If we are having a discussion let's stick with Rei. You still didn't tell me how my reasons are false.
    [/quote]




    I don't understand - I meant false in the sense that I thought you were wrong - that the reasons you gave lacked validity. Is there something wrong with disagreeing withyou?





    [/quote]




    Well, if you think my reasons are false, than I would like you to explain why.




    [/quote]




    The one that stuck out for me was the mediocrity as the norm thing. I don't see how cdg is mediocre. If you are referring to speedo, the underwear, play etc, then fine, but you expressly weren't.I don't think the flag collection ismediocre, i don't think the pink panther collection was mediocre (the fabrics were amazing), i don't think here current collection is mediocre (someof it is amazing to look at and touch). you might not like it but it's not mediocre.




    and the thing about madonna too. are you really suggesting that she is just like madonnareally?simply because she's doing a collection for H&M? and that any distinction based on contribution to fashion, integrity, ability is invalid and only really nudge nudge wink wink ironic?



    [/quote]



    I gotcha, I can see how you misunderstood that point. I obviously wasn't referring to mediocrity in execution. CDG quality is top notch. I was referring to the mediocrity of her concepts, but not even that, but rather her borrowing mediocrity from pop culture for her collections.



    The reason I put Madonna there is to intensify the point of irony. Isn't that what everyone praises Rei for? How smart she is, how ironic she is, how conceptual she is?

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  5. #85

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="Faust"]I am afraid your last point is wishful thinking - H&M is the definition of disposable consumption. Where are the V&R+H&M garments now? Who has them?[/quote]... I think of all the criticisms leveled against this collab, this is the most worthy, because it's certainly true -- H&M's disposability is part of its brand identity... but like I said, "design within reach" has to start somewhere, and for a clothing designer, H&M is the obvious place to start. My hope is that it leads to more designers making more accessible clothing in general -- and by extension, increasing the quality, durability and design of affordable clothing.

  6. #86
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="gerry"]

    Maybe the point is that no designer like Kawabuko has gone in this direction. I feel like her integrity as a designer is in her saying, "You've put me in this box, now I'm going to break out of it."



    While I have a feeling that I'm going to detest what actually comes out of the marriage between the two, this is much more important than Lagerfeld's collaboration for the simple reason that despite how influential and inspiring Kawabuko is, not that many people outside the fashion industry seem to know or care about her. While I may not enjoy her decision or respect the outcome of it, I feel like it makes sense within the pattern of CDG.



    [/quote]



    it certainly makes sense within the pattern of CDG. that's exactly what i've been saying.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  7. #87
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    [quote user="m.inya"][quote user="Faust"]I am afraid your last point is wishful thinking - H&M is the definition of disposable consumption. Where are the V&R+H&M garments now? Who has them?[/quote]... I think of all the criticisms leveled against this collab, this is the most worthy, because it's certainly true -- H&M's disposability is part of its brand identity... but like I said, "design within reach" has to start somewhere, and for a clothing designer, H&M is the obvious place to start. My hope is that it leads to more designers making more accessible clothing.
    [/quote]



    I still maintain that this is wishful thinking. The consumer has to change, and it won't happen no matter what name you slap on a $20 cardigan. Where are all those Anya Hindmarch "I am not a plastic bag" bags? Disposed. Now that's ironic.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  8. #88

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="m.inya"][quote user="zamb"]

    rteally have any kind of appreciation for Good design and quality should not want to be associated with. Does anyone have any kind of integrity anymore?



    if Rei Believes that this kind of Fashion is Acceptable, why did dhe run an exclusive brand for all these years?



    While we can all agree that she has been successful, maybe in some ways she thinks she has failed. In the sense that, she now has less years as a designer infront of of her as a designer than she has already done and she hasnt recieved the kind of acclaim she had hoped for, or at least desires to achieve. So now, she is forgoing all her principles, that once seems so uncompromising, in an attemp to broaden her name and influence beyond fashion insiders and avante garde intellectuals........................



    [/quote]Wow -- talk about elitism. People who can't afford designer clothing can't appreciate good design -- because they can't afford it? What?

    That's ridiculous. So is the notion of a "vision" being "compromised." Why isn't it the other way around -- her vision being expanded, broadened? Clothes are clothes, and everyone wears them. If more and more people are exposed to well-designed clothes, this can only be a good thing. Yes, H&M's quality is pretty much piss-poor. But its designs are stylish, and the "runway-trickle-down-effect" is a good (and necessary) thing.



    Personally, I would LOVE to see more established, respected designers tackling cheap, affordable clothing. Everyone seems to think that this is a walk in the park -- a sell-out, an easy grab for cash. From my point of view, it's an honorable challenge, something new and fresh, and something that is sorely lacking in our marketplace.



    [/quote]



    I admit I'm kind of fighting for both sides, but...



    This is one of Zamb's arguments that I find really important: if Rei Believes that this kind of Fashion is Acceptable, why did dhe run an exclusive brand for all these years?



    True. To me its kind of like Spitzer going to a prostitute.





    "If more and more people are exposed to well-designed clothes, this can only be a good thing." ? Quite honestly, I don't think the point of CDG clothing is to be well-designed. That point is irrelevant, but while exposure to designers like Kawabuko can be great, I'm pretty sure H&M kids aren't ready for it.




  9. #89

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="Faust"]I still maintain that this is wishful thinking. The consumer has to change, and it won't happen no matter what name you slap on a $20 cardigan.[/quote]Yeah, that's a great point... 10 years down the road, we'll see if anything's changed. [73]

  10. #90

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="m.inya"][quote user="zamb"]


    rteally have any kind of appreciation for Good design and quality should not want to be associated with. Does anyone have any kind of integrity anymore?




    if Rei Believes that this kind of Fashion is Acceptable, why did dhe run an exclusive brand for all these years?




    While we can all agree that she has been successful, maybe in some ways she thinks she has failed. In the sense that, she now has less years as a designer infront of of her as a designer than she has already done and she hasnt recieved the kind of acclaim she had hoped for, or at least desires to achieve. So now, she is forgoing all her principles, that once seems so uncompromising, in an attemp to broaden her name and influence beyond fashion insiders and avante garde intellectuals........................




    [/quote]Wow -- talk about elitism. People who can't afford designer clothing can't appreciate good design -- because they can't afford it? What?

    That's ridiculous. So is the notion of a "vision" being "compromised." Why isn't it the other way around -- her vision being expanded, broadened? Clothes are clothes, and everyone wears them. If more and more people are exposed to well-designed clothes, this can only be a good thing. Yes, H&M's quality is pretty much piss-poor. But its designs are stylish, and the "runway-trickle-down-effect" is a good (and necessary) thing.




    Personally, I would LOVE to see more established, respected designers tackling cheap, affordable clothing. Everyone seems to think that this is a walk in the park -- a sell-out, an easy grab for cash. From my point of view, it's an honorable challenge, something new and fresh, and something that is sorely lacking in our marketplace.




    [/quote]




    Clarify yourself,




    What do you mean by elitism?




    If you mean that i hold people and things to the highest Quality the can be then yes, elitist in that sense, which is the very reason why i stopped designing for a while............... because i held Myself to a standart that i found myself below, and that wasnt accetpable.




    but if in the sense of exclusivity because of having a condescending mind then no, because the principles by which i live is diametrically oppes to that way of thinking.




    when someone as Rei, who has done asignifcant body of work for many years, from which you can deduce her perspective on design/ fashion, goes against that to collaborate with a company that is against everything that her work communicates, why should she 9or any other) get a pass on that.




    How is someones vision broadened a bland meaningless categorty of the same categories of things they have excelled in?




    that is like Michealangelo after doing all his beautiful work. becoming a painter of houses and expecting some kind of credit/ knowledge from it

    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


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  11. #91

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    Another thought... How can CDG come up with something that can actually be approved by H&M?



    1. The vast majority of these collaborative collections haven't actually been designed by the actual designer but rather by a team of designers interpreting the label's image.



    2. Label's current train of thought...





    3. The fact that there's no way that H&M would let a collection (hypothetically) produced in that much volume not sell.





    Also... Kawabuko said, "There's value in bad taste, too. This is Comme des Garçons bad taste." Perhaps there's value in bad quality, too? Haha...


  12. #92
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    surely, if Rei does it, it's good. thanks for the quote, by the way, her campiness surely can't be denied now? btw, laika, again - i did not say "kitsch" in this thread.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  13. #93

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="wire.artist"][quote user="gerry"]


    3. The fact that there's no way that H&M would let a collection (hypothetically) produced in that much volume not sell.




    [/quote]




    H&M don't give a shit about if this does sell or not, the media is gonna be flooded with H&M name with no cost.





    [/quote]





    If that's the case, then they should just go all out and make H&M a guerilla store for 4 weeks. Ha.


  14. #94

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    [quote user="Faust"] btw, laika, again - i did not say "kitsch" in this thread.
    [/quote]




    ok, Faust. You've said this twice now, so you must think it proves an important point. Can you elaborate please?




    And am I supposed to take this as a "response" to my last post? Which, btw, did not include the word, "kitsch" either, if that makes a difference to you? [^o)]



    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  15. #95

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    [quote user="wire.artist"]You see...THAT's a radical idea. they should just sell all the old stock at H&M pricing
    [/quote]




    [74]




    Agree, it's brilliant...much better than sending it up in a bonfire, for sure!

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  16. #96
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="laika"]

    [quote user="Faust"] btw, laika, again - i did not say "kitsch" in this thread.
    [/quote]




    ok, Faust. You've said this twice now, so you must think it proves an important point. Can you elaborate please?




    And am I supposed to take this as a "response" to my last post? Which, btw, did not include the word, "kitsch" either, if that makes a difference to you? [^o)]



    [/quote]



    well, camp is ironic in the way that it elevates bad taste, but that wasn't even the point - i wasn't lumping them together, i was enumerating. they are distinct features of Rei's creative output of the last couple of years. as far as the flag collection - she again put her statement in front of the designs and that's what people remember. they remember the "flag is a purest symbol" (a bit of a disturbing statement with a whiff of fascism, wouldn't you say?), and not the beautiful jackets of that collection. of course rei fanboys came rushing to her defense saying how ironic she is, how she of course did not mean to express japanese supremacy, etc. etc.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  17. #97

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="gerry"]


    Also... Kawabuko said,"There's value in bad taste, too. This is Comme des Garçons bad taste." Perhaps there's value in bad quality, too? Haha...




    [/quote]




    It's an interesting idea, certainly. But I would guess that bad quality does not have the subversive potential of bad taste. We have objective standards for judging quality that are difficult to contest, whereas taste--unlike beauty--is purely subjective and open to interpretation. Alittle bad taste can be good taste, if you know what I mean.[75] Those Rick Owens sneakers are a good example of this....

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  18. #98

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



    [quote user="Faust"][




    well, camp is ironic in the way that it elevates bad taste, but that wasn't even the point - i wasn't lumping them together, i was enumerating. they are distinct features of Rei's creative output of the last couple of years. as far as the flag collection - she again put her statement in front of the designs and that's what people remember. they remember the "flag is a purest symbol" (a bit of a disturbing statement with a whiff of fascism, wouldn't you say?), and not the beautiful jackets of that collection. of course rei fanboys came rushing to her defense saying how ironic she is, how she of course did not mean to express japanese supremacy, etc. etc.[/quote]




    What she said, is "To me, it [the flag] is the purest form of design in existence." There is a difference.




    Be back later.....[79][66]

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  19. #99

    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="laika"]


    [quote user="Faust"][




    ...they remember the "flag is a purest symbol" (a bit of a disturbing statement with a whiff of fascism, wouldn't you say?), and not the beautiful jackets of that collection. of course rei fanboys came rushing to her defense saying how ironic she is, how she of course did not mean to express japanese supremacy, etc. etc.[/quote]




    What she said, is "To me, it [the flag] is the purest form of design in existence." There is a difference.





    [/quote]





    She was not the first to say this. Unfortunately, the futurist, purist, and yes, fasict cultures behind some of the flags past flown in the 20th century are amongst the strongest and most enduring examples of design. But it would be a mistake to leave art and fashion out of the category of relevance to that which informs our collective identity as a 21st century society. A designer, in order to maintain integrity, should maintain some sort of standard. If there is no standard set by the artist, then how are we to judge it's value, as it's intended recipients?



    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.
    - John Ruskin

  20. #100
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    /\ bam! pm sent, game over. i've been meaning to read ruskin for a while, i know he thinks along some of the same lines.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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