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Thread: Undercover / Undercoverism

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by joey_k View Post
    do ten times more for the designer than the large company

    wow, i don't think I could disagree more. Faust and I gave CDG as a PERFECT example of how bad these collaborations are, they are ONLY for the large company.

    ok, lets use another example because I think that there aren't enough UC supporters on this site. Lets say Rick announced that in two months he would be doing H&M, or Uniqlo or Macy's whatever. How would you feel about that? I feel like its more than obvious that these "large" companies have asked Rick a million times to do a collaboration, but he's much smarter than that, and is financially doing well right now, so why would he want to jeopardize his company. its really the designers responsibility to stay low profile, and keep serving the small group that have learned to adapt to his way of thinking.

    when it comes down to it, the majority of people who have bought rick or uniqlo probably don't shop at fast fashion places.

    I think we should really look at these collaborations as the designers Low Point in a career.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISM View Post
    wow, i don't think I could disagree more. Faust and I gave CDG as a PERFECT example of how bad these collaborations are, they are ONLY for the large company.

    ok, lets use another example because I think that there aren't enough UC supporters on this site. Lets say Rick announced that in two months he would be doing H&M, or Uniqlo or Macy's whatever. How would you feel about that? I feel like its more than obvious that these "large" companies have asked Rick a million times to do a collaboration, but he's much smarter than that, and is financially doing well right now, so why would he want to jeopardize his company. its really the designers responsibility to stay low profile, and keep serving the small group that have learned to adapt to his way of thinking.

    when it comes down to it, the majority of people who have bought rick or uniqlo probably don't shop at fast fashion places.

    I think we should really look at these collaborations as the designers Low Point in a career.

    ISM you have to realize what a tiny percentage of the consumer market that sz is in reality. The amount of publicity from these cross overs do work wonders for smaller designers in terms of name recognition to much larger audiences. Not to mention the large infusion into the designers business that goes along with these collaborations.

    Serving the small group is a core ideal that has to be held on to but at the end of the day that small costumer pool can not propel a designers business into the place where it is profitable. The costs of running a fashion business are astronomical. Rick has had the fortune to have DRKSHDW take off (while having a massive distribution network). Also RO's mainline has been embraced by a much larger mainstream audience also due to its own wide distribution and rapidly growing distribution.

  3. #103

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    Chilton0326, great points. Thank you for persisting despite the negative (and occasionally offensive) responses you've received.

    Quote Originally Posted by ISM View Post
    just look at cdg h&m. you cannot take a brand like comme des garçons, who feeds an extremely educated group of fashion enthusiasts and rich men and women, and allow a brand like h&m to take all the old designs and patterns and give them rights to sell them to the masses. its almost disrespectful to cdg buyers.
    This is a funny thing to say. Maybe you should start wearing Versace (like me )
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  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael_kard View Post
    Chilton0326, great points. Thank you for persisting despite the negative (and occasionally offensive) responses you've received.



    This is a funny thing to say. Maybe you should start wearing Versace (like me )

    I agree with Michael Kard.

  5. #105

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    Undercover has for a long time had a focus on experimental materials and techniques, so its no surprise that Jun is interested in working with Nike. what in your opinion is the comparable advantage that Uniqlo brings to the table, then?

    Years ago I probably would've bought the naive idea that everyone benefits from these particular type of collaborations and designers maintain their full integrity when they sell a half-assed vision through a fastfood fashion giant, but I've learned that the industry isn't a magical candy land filled with good will and unicorns. I know a large part of the designers we discuss here personally and have learned a bit about their integrity, and I believe its impossible to fully maintain it and get into a project like this.

    I can't speak for UC x uniqlo because it doesn't exist yet, but I don't see why it would be a sudden turning point. Its pointless to compare these to fucking Elton John or anything from film or music because its an entirely different industry.

    Jil for uniqlo had some nice cuts for women, but felt cheap. the mens wear was watered down and boring. I don't see what it could've possibly brought for Jil, but it brought hype for uniqlo. Lanvin stomped on part of their soul with fugly patent shoes when they designed crap for H&M and dug even deeper when they had the nerve to claim the quality was on par with their own products. 95% of people who bought these rags will never buy Lanvin and the other 5% were already customers of theirs, so what did they benefit as a label. CDG is difficult to compare because they've always down wacky collaborations and offshoots, but the difference is that most of these projects are under their own name, not putting their own label on someone else's crap like they did with H&M. that obviously wasn't a very succesful endeavor for them.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

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  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISM View Post
    wow, i don't think I could disagree more. Faust and I gave CDG as a PERFECT example of how bad these collaborations are, they are ONLY for the large company.

    ok, lets use another example because I think that there aren't enough UC supporters on this site. Lets say Rick announced that in two months he would be doing H&M, or Uniqlo or Macy's whatever. How would you feel about that? I feel like its more than obvious that these "large" companies have asked Rick a million times to do a collaboration, but he's much smarter than that, and is financially doing well right now, so why would he want to jeopardize his company. its really the designers responsibility to stay low profile, and keep serving the small group that have learned to adapt to his way of thinking.

    when it comes down to it, the majority of people who have bought rick or uniqlo probably don't shop at fast fashion places.

    I think we should really look at these collaborations as the designers Low Point in a career.
    Have we forgotten about DRKSHDW x Eastpak?

    A backpack brand that my little brother who wears Affliction shirt still carries.

    CDG x Everything is just an example of how not to abuse collaborations.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    The only benefit I see to Jun is the pleasure of dressing more people, as well as the challenge of trying to succeed where other peers have failed. (It's also possibly just a case of him working more as a mentor to some of the young Japanese talent who joined Uniqlo as a result of his ad for them. He's at an age where working like Rei as a mentor to young designers might have some attraction.)
    You are really picking at straws here. Wanting to succeed where others failed. Wanting to be a mentor to other designers. Do you really think these are his reasons for doing a collab with Uniqlo, rather than simply wanting to make more money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    Now while I think the "poor health" of Undercover is greatly exaggerated, those who proposed that Jun was desperate for the cash could have also proposed that Uniqlo was kind to offer it. If a veteran designer was indeed having business problems due to a dwindling fanbase, why would Uniqlo have considered him a major boon to their own business?
    Look at every collaboration in the past couple of years. They all had lots of hype before the launch date. Massive lines on the day of. General hysteria all around. Plus great press coverage, even after the launch. That is clearly great business for a company like Uniqlo.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    Now while I think the "poor health" of Undercover is greatly exaggerated, those who proposed that Jun was desperate for the cash could have also proposed that Uniqlo was kind to offer it. If a veteran designer was indeed having business problems due to a dwindling fanbase, why would Uniqlo have considered him a major boon to their own business?
    why do you say its exxaggerated?

    either way, problems on the business side don't mean that he wouldn't have a fanbase, UC obviously has a cult status particularly in Japan. look at Yohji, guy is a legend but he still went bankrupt. people love him and his work, but the industry can be a struggle.

    so, even if UC has problems, it certainly doesn't rule out the fact that this collaboration would create plenty of hype and be thus beneficial for uniqlo, which seems like the logical motive for them.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by therapysessions View Post
    Have we forgotten about DRKSHDW x Eastpak?

    A backpack brand that my little brother who wears Affliction shirt still carries.

    CDG x Everything is just an example of how not to abuse collaborations.
    While this was rather lame, it never had the fanfare that the big chain stores collabs have. And as I said above, Rei clearly stated in a WWD interview that she regretted her decisions to collaborate with H&M.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  10. #110

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    At the end of the day it suprised me to hear this but I'm for it. Noone is forcing you to buy these good and at the end of the day the quality and aeshetics of the uniqlo x UC line will determine its success

  11. #111
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    We are not discussing shopping habits here, we are discussing the whole philosophy. And in Jun's case this looks hypocritical given his statements printed on labels from last year.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by homi View Post
    At the end of the day it suprised me to hear this but I'm for it. Noone is forcing you to buy these good and at the end of the day the quality and aeshetics of the uniqlo x UC line will determine its success
    not really. marketing will play a bigger role than both quality and aesthetics. why do you think all collaborations pretty much sell out the first day? surely not cause of quality. none of the people waiting in line will have any idea about what to expect from the collabo because no one has seen it in person yet. but they will still be there cause of the hype and the marketing. the items can be nice or crappy, doesn't really matter. they'll sell regardless, and it'll be mostly cause of the hype.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    But if he wants to change the ordinary consumer, what can he do except make products for a store like Uniqlo? If he truly wants to "build a community of like minded people who strive with us towards a different reality where the true values of fashion matter again", how can he do it except going directly to the people who don't already share his passion for good design?
    i don't think you realize that Juns work is NOT for the ordinary consumer. Undercover has ALWAYS been for the underground cult of fashion lovers. even when he left nigo at nowhere, he did it because he wanted to serve a smaller but better group of people. and time and time again, he has put this philosophy into his collections. remember the "Less by Better" collection??? or the reverse running collection? they all preach "stop supporting bullshit fashion!"

    that being said, don't you think that this sort of decision is a ridiculous and ironic one for Jun to make?

    i know the brand is going to take a SERIOUS hit from this.

  14. #114

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    You've got an interesting perspective that i didn't really think of at first, but i can definitely see your reasoning and i'd like to believe that what you say is right. However, bearing the previous comments he's made in mind, i would have liked him to maybe make a comment on his honeyee blog or something to explain his thoughts. It's a bit soppy but i think needed when he has such a small but dedicated fanbase.

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISM View Post
    i don't think you realize that Juns work is NOT for the ordinary consumer. Undercover has ALWAYS been for the underground cult of fashion lovers.

    i know the brand is going to take a SERIOUS hit from this.
    A bit overdramatic don't you think? Jun has collaborated with Nike and Hello Kitty for crying out loud. I'm quite certain Jun has always wanted UC to be as big as possible. In the particular niche market of course, but the aimed market is much wider than "undergound cult of fashion lovers".

  16. #116

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    I'm not sure it actually means anything, but i think Undercover is still financially under Nowhere CO LTD with A Bathing Ape which recently was sold for a lot less than expected due to dwindling income. Of course that could have been because of Bape's decline alone.

    It's a given that Undercover doesn't currently do well internationally and in NY, but gauging by the amount of product making it to sale/ being considerably reduced in Japan stores i don't think it's doing well there either.
    Last edited by ashveil; 07-23-2011 at 04:30 PM.

  17. #117

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    I think the point about Rick Owens doing one of these with H&M or Macy's or something is a good one. Who would honestly look at RO the same way after that?
    Suede is too Gucci.

  18. #118

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    If the collaboration between Undercover and Uniqlo can allow Jun to make some more "experimental" collections (I have Scab or even Earmuff Maniac in mind) in the place of the current ones, that i still love, but find too oriented on the technical aspects, I think it can be a good thing.

    And more of that, we all know how Jun have produced some really street items, and i think that if the collaboration is really oriented on the street side too, it will not be a loss of soul for Undercover.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    And so I think there is an element of daring in Uniqlo's selection that should be respected.
    Yes and No. In fact in Japan, Uniqlo has a poor image (seen as a boring and old-fashioned brand but of a rather good quality/price point), quite different from the image they have in Europe or the US. Uniqlo would do anything to gain the Japanese young market.
    Last edited by emixam; 07-25-2011 at 10:43 PM.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by emixam View Post
    Yes and No. In fact in Japan, Uniqlo has a poor image (seen as a boring and fashioned brand but of a rather good quality/price point), quite different from the image they have in Europe or the US. Uniqlo would do anything to gain the Japanese young market.
    Didn t know, make me change my mind a little..

    But the comparison with owens is useless, Undercover is so different from Owens...

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