Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 269

Thread: Undercover / Undercoverism

  1. #141
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Long hard road out of hell
    Posts
    37,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    I simply read this differently. He is making a general criticism of "fast fashion" he has seen -- but he is not saying it does nto have the potential to be good.



    I see this as much a comment against his fellow designers as about the stores they've partnered with. When a designer commits to projects for the wrong reasons, then treat their job with less passion than they would their mainline collections, the end results are understandably sub-par.

    Jun's collection with NIKE was good, not merely sub-par, because he actually approached it with all of his design expertise, and tried to fix things that nagged him as a runner -- ie feeling change in your pocket, etc.




    Well, I agree with Tricotineacetat -- a lot of people, including many bloggers that seem disrespected by some here, know a lot about fashion these days -- and I also just think there are people who can appreciate a garment (received as a gift, or bought on a whim)
    as fully as someone else without actually knowing the name of the designer behind the garment...
    We can stop right there. This is like Republican politics. Who cares about facts, as long as we put our spin on it, it's all good. Chilton, the facts don't conform to your narrative.

    And Jun's collection for Nike was absolutely no different from what Nike does. Zilch. I couldn't tell a difference if it wasn't for the label.

    And, please enlighten us how fast fashion is going to ride out into the new glorious sunset. With Jun's designs they will magically transform from sweatshop running, consumerism promoting, resoruces destroying, shit-slinging conglomerates that only care about profits into paragons of design virtue? What a crock of shit.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  2. #142

    Default

    .
    These people think you people are nuts.


    The Queen ┈┄┅┉┈┈ Takahiro Miyashita ┈┄┅┉┈┈ Jun Takahashi
    .
    .
    sain't
    .

  3. #143

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by interest1 View Post
    These people think you people are nuts.
    that's what I was thinking too

  4. #144

    Default

    Something this and the Alaia interview have had me thinking about is this term that we use - 'fast fashion.' What does it really mean? We seem use it describe Uniqlo, Topshop, All Saints, H&M, and others when their business practices, target markets and aesthetics are pretty disparate. As a result, the term 'fast fashion' seem like more of a pejorative term that describes the customer and frankly in a way that seems fairly classist - the implication of 'fast fashion' being that it's 'cheap, disposable.' This may be true of people who are also buying and can afford Rick Owens but what about (a good number of people) for whom a J+ jacket would be a major seasonal purchase, people who do most of their shopping at Macy's and maybe splurge on a better-fitting, slightly better made Uniqlo down jacket for winter?

    I think one point chilton is making that I appreciate (and I don't agree with him across the board and certainly don't believe that many of the collaborations so far have actually done so) is that this is the potential for these collections - to make good, world-class design affordable. As he said, while the Undercover mainline, for instance, relies and is often good as a result of its fabrics it is not impossible to do good work with less. In fact, I feel it should be an imperative and in that sense J+ was successful. It's not, and wasn't, for people on SZ or even on Superfuture in my opinion. It's for people who want clothing that feels contemporary, who have a sense and desire for better design but can't afford more than a $60 button-down. It's not supposed to compete with Jil Sander or even anything at Barney's Co-Op, it's competing with Target and Men's Wearhouse in the sense that they hope that people are willing to spend $60 rather than $40 - just for the sake of design.

  5. #145

    Default

    ^+1

    at some point in time this thread shifted from undercover+uniqlo to

    "Is exclusivity part of 'good' design', since apparently anything mainstream must be evil"

  6. #146
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    seagulls
    Posts
    991

    Default

    discussion should've been ended after the following points were made by faust....No one said the mainstream is necessarily bad its the fact that its quite wishful thinking to be so optimistic about this.

    1) We are in a market economy - designers and stores (both are complicit) will charge what the market will bear.

    2) The recession wiping out a lot of middle class, the market is going back to how it actually always was, up until 50-60 years ago, super expensive and affordable.





    You seem to be implying that somehow these designer collaborations will save the day. They won't, because the result is the same mass produced inanities with a different name tag on them. They are not designer fashion, no matter how many photos Lagerfeld takes of them. What MAY save the world is young talented designers exploiting market inefficiencies that are caused by greed and arrogance. The higher the prices of established designers, coupled with decrease in quality, become, which points to their disdain for the consumer and fuck-you-pay-me attitude, the more opportunity will be there for others to step in. This is how companies like Honda, Google, Apple, and Netflix are born - they come into a marketplace where the established players are so thick with the fat of their profits and faith in the status quo, that they become complacent and arrogant.

  7. #147
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Long hard road out of hell
    Posts
    37,691

    Default

    Servo, that is quite romantic thinking on your part. To be sure, and I make this point in my lectures, ostensibly, Uniqlos and H&Ms of this world bring decent clothing to the less fortunate, and we know that's the majority of the people. But is it really the case? No. For most people cheap prices are an excuse to go shopping every weekend, because they can. I bet everyone here knows someone like that, merely shoppers, consumers, who throw clothes out with tags on them, unworn, and don't feel bad about it. You can extrapolate that yourself further - supporting sweatshops, being unsustainable, wasting, having no connection with the things you own and so on. I don't remember the exact statistic - you can look it up in the Eco-Fashion book - but people in Britain throw out something like 60,000 or 600,000 (would be even more mind boggling) tons of clothing every year. Imagine what it's like in the US. So, no, I don't buy that argument.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  8. #148

    Default

    I'd like to see some actual clothes from this collab line, and continue this discussion after that...

    I'm actually looking forward to this collaboration. Not because I would buy that stuff cause I probably won't. But more like I'm genuinely interested what Jun will come up with this time.

    ^^^^^And look at Jun, does he look like he gives a fuck.

  9. #149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    supporting sweatshops, being unsustainable, wasting, having no connection with the things you own and so on.
    These are valid arguments against collabs like this. Agreed.

  10. #150
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    hanoi, vietnam
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Atom View Post
    These are valid arguments against collabs like this. Agreed.
    no, against a part of people who buy cheap clothes and throw them away without wearing them.

    Faust, the majority of people still buy these clothes bc they need them.

    I still wear a HM pair of linen trouser i bought 4 years ago (after re-dyeing it). I wear white tshirts i bought from benetton like 6-7 years ago.

  11. #151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nqth View Post
    no, against a part of people who buy cheap clothes and throw them away without wearing them.
    Sweatshops should be manufacturers problem first, consumers problem second. Not vice versa.

  12. #152
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    hanoi, vietnam
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Atom View Post
    Sweatshops should be manufacturers problem first, consumers problem second. Not vice versa.
    sweatshops yes, but maybe not "collabs like this" as you stated. the probl. is about manufacturers that use sweatshops.

  13. #153
    Senior Member franz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    221

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    I bet everyone here knows someone like that, merely shoppers, consumers, who throw clothes out with tags on them, unworn, and don't feel bad about it
    Quote Originally Posted by nqth View Post
    I still wear a HM pair of linen trouser i bought 4 years ago (after re-dyeing it). I wear white tshirts i bought from benetton like 6-7 years ago.
    Just passing by (there is WAY to much aggressiveness going around for my taste):

    1. I still own some Uniqlo or AA stuff, some are indeed quite durable. And AA's original philosophy of fair wages and sweatshop-free was great IMO, reconciliating ethics and mass distribution (though it failed, it was still a project worthy of consideration)
    2. Do not throw stuff away ; I've given tons of stuff to charities (entire travel bags), so if you indeed know people throwing away unworn stuff, slap them across the face and drag them to your local charities
    3. The condescension against people buying from H&M/Zara feels a bit harsh to me.
    I know people shopping often at these stores. Even if they shifted all their purchases to brands discussed here, they would not be able to purchase more than one or 2 piece a year. I'm sorry, but it seems complicated to me to build a wardrobe at this pace. I've got a colleague who just came back from Zara: she was wondering whether she should return some of the stuff she bought cause it felt to her she had indulged herself (a sweater and a dress for what I guess was far less than 100)
    Please do not forget that we are talking about 1000 jackets or pants. That's more than most people spend yearly for clothing.
    And I've heard of some durability issues with CCP's spiral jeans for example... which is pretty inexcusable as far as I'm concerned.

    I personally shop groceries at a local organic co-op guaranteeing fair value-added sharing between retailer and producers (a trending topic in France); I think everybody should do so. I know 95% just can't afford it, and buy junk just because they cannot afford to do it differently.
    I'd be curious to have a look at some people's grocery shopping habits: because buying Undercover or CCP partly because they do not pollute or exploit people, and then purchasing industrially processed food, or GMO-shit is no consistent behaviour.

  14. #154

    Default

    no one is saying that every person who has ever bought anything from H&M is evil. you need to re-read the discussion if thats the impression you got. and, comparing organic or processed food to tossing sweat shop made garments into the trash isn't exactly straight forward.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

  15. #155
    Senior Member franz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    221

    Default

    I won't feed the beast (not speaking about you, the thread in general!!) so pm.

  16. #156

    Default

    "Takahashi, the 33-year-old founder of fashion house Under Cover, is shaking his head, tugging on his "Nagasaki Nightmare" T shirt and bitching about the spate of anxiety dreams he's been suffering lately. In one, he's at an unveiling of his offbeat outfits when the models mutate into dogs. In another, his latest collection of hand-sewn jeans and vests entitled "Scab" morphs into a Uniqlo horror of unadventurous banality. In yet another dream he's watching someone's head, probably his own, melt. "It's been like this for months," Takahashi moans."

    Back in Dec '02 admittedly, but made me smile http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz1XAGEBiPX
    "Lots of people who think they are into fashion are actually just into shopping"

  17. #157
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Long hard road out of hell
    Posts
    37,691

    Default

    /\ Fantastic, syed. Hats off. This is some serious Kafkaesque shit.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  18. #158

    Default

    I just posted it because I thought it was interesting in light of the discussion really.

    Whilst I would like to think that fast fashion collaborations could be done better and actually produce something interesting, I'm not as optimistic as you in thinking that this will happen with Jun's collection. Yes every designer approaches these things differently, but judging from what has gone before I do hold high hopes. That is not to say I am looking for it to fail, in fact I hope it does turn out well and surprise us all, but I'm not so sure that it will. Uniqlo in and of itself has declined in the past year or two, and this is coming from someone who was a major fan or their basics - prices going up, quality going down. Aggressive marketing and expansion has been at a cost.

    Limiting cost limits what and how things can be created. But with mass market stuff it's also about what sells. Hirakawa in his Mekas interview said that "Undercover is always 70% things Takahashi wants to make and 30% clothes the brand wants to sell." But a Uniqlo collaboration line necessarily must be 100% of what the brand wants to sell. In fact screw the brand, it's what Uniqlo wants to sell. Yes it might be more interesting than 'a Uniqlo horror of unadventurous banality', but I'm not sure it will be the step in changing fast fashion collaborations you hope it might be.
    "Lots of people who think they are into fashion are actually just into shopping"

  19. #159
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Long hard road out of hell
    Posts
    37,691

    Default

    Dear Jun, please don't make any more documentaries. Or hire a professional to do one. Thanks.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  20. #160

    Default

    Just watch a Documentary on Jun Takahashi called mirror. so disappointed. I think Gyakusou is getting out of hand.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •