Carol Christian Poell

[laika]

It's easy, but it's professional deformation : comenting, means interpreting, for example Claude Simon's Tritypque or Kafka's Prozess etc. doesn't implicate to know their feelings. Critical writing isn't based on the writer/designer/creator's psychology (feelings, thoughts, personal history, etc.), but on his works of art, which is an objective object, which has it's own rules of construction.
The less you know about the artist, the better the comment will be (that's why critical essays on medieval litterature are the most interesting, or the less boring ones). But it's another discussion...

I agree, so let's speak about the ways the clothes are cut, how they fit, or not, the feminine anatomy, and the image of the women they're related to...

When I said misogynistic, I was speaking from/about the clothes, not about the man...

I think designed clothes can't help but embody the designer's attitude toward sex...has to do with their intimate relationship to the body, I think. You are right that it doesn't matter whether Poell is a misogynist or not. What matters is whether the clothes are misogynistic and in this particular case, I think they are. I'm not sure it's possible to discern this through formal analysis alone, but I could certainly try.

[laika]

Yep. It's the same limitation Atelier people hit when they first opened the store. They were under the impression that NYC women are individualistic and daring style-wise. Took them a year of dismal sales to learn that is not the case. Obviously I am not ruling out other factors, such as their buy wasn't good, etc., but given the success of their menswear, it seems a likely factor. Sorry, laika, I hope I am not sounding misogynist myself. We need more women like you :-)

I've thought about this a bit since you first mentioned it to me a few years ago, and I kinda think it's bullshit logic on Atelier's part. The designers they carry--Ann, Yohji, Comme, Rick Owens, Undercover--all sell extremely well to women in other NYC stores...they sell out, in fact. I know this because (prior to this economy) it has always been extremely hard to get that stuff on sale. My guess is that they were simply not as good at buying for women .

[Faust]

It's a possibility. By the way, their lineup was very, very different from what's there now. Women slowly trickle back in though to buy accessories and stuff like that...

[laika]

^Do you remember what designers they carried? I am curious to know what they saw as daring and individualistic...

[Casius]

I always thought A was going to start carrying Women's pieces again; Whatever happened to that?

[kompressorkev]

I believe the model was not really scarred, but was wearing makeup or a mask/tape. Presentation aside, CCP womenswear doesn't attract me much, and i find it a bit too austere and in my opinion it fails to accentuate femininity the way i like clothing to do so. The other seasons aren't a whole lot nicer, IMO. I'm more partial to Gustavolins' take on femininity with clothing. Anyway, more pictures when i get back from class. A little preview of what's to come:

[Chinorlz]

I always thought A was going to start carrying Women's pieces again; Whatever happened to that?

Woo! Classes done for the day and notes completed so I can now write about the subject discussed today hehehe

Cas, I believe Atelier had just said they were carrying some of the womens line jewelry from people such as Ann and not any clothing in particular... I may be corrected here.

In regards to the womens pieces by Carol, my take on it is a bit different than some of those written.

I never saw it as misogynistic-clothing or something to make women ugly, nor do I think less thought went into it versus his menswear. I agree that aesthetically it is not his strong suit. Carol is about creating pieces that inherently have a level of strength, masculinity, and in a sense in-your-face-ness. There is nothing soft or "classically" feminine about his creations. Everything from the fabric on up is hard and sometimes coarse and he doesn't give this up when he designed for women.

Many womenwear designers and lots of womenswear in general is unforgiving in the sense that it looks absolutely best on a thin, lithe figure. Alaia's dresses, Louboutin stilettos are but a couple of these instances. Constriction, restriction and discomfort are quite often the name of the game and I'll certainly admit that many of the Poell pieces I own are not what many would consider "comfortable" clothing. They're cut super close to the body, don't allow full range of motion, are hard on the feet etc. etc.

I see the womens pieces as the same. I don't think he ignores the female form or hates it. I think he celebrates feminity from a different perspective; playing with what is hidden and what is emphasized. The fingertip "gloves" elongate the fingers and give the hand a natural and soft look contrasted with the strangeness and hardness of the leather used for the "gloves. Pants/skirts that come up only to the upper thigh draw attention directly to the model's ah... womanhood. Carol was never one to tiptoe around his direction and concept. To me, he wants the female form to be unmistakable there as contrasted with pieces such as his "dick trousers." The ruched fly pants were produced for men and women so I don't see any symbolism or sexual disparity there, but the white "high heel" boots with the removable heel serve to both bridge the gap between his mens and womenswear and are a nod to a level of transformation imbued in the wearer of his clothes. His designs change the way you walk, the way you move and inevitably the way you think and look at design (this is of course not unique to Carol by any means).

Pieces such as the cast dress and arm corset if anything, celebrate the female form to me while staying true to Carol's roots in his material/leather/treatment pursuit. He has captured the silhouette and structure of the female body and it will be there long after the model has taken it off. A celebration, remembrance... persisting memory of the beauty possessed. I see it as taking something raw and dead(the leather) and sculpting it with something perfect and alive (baby jesus... just kidding... the model). Capturing the moment is what I see there.

Carol celebrates the female form and the powers that it has... just see the pregnancy pieces he's done. With the texture and colors that he's chosen it harkens to "mother earth" carvings. Regardless of his sexuality, he acknowledges and celebrates the pregnant female form.

Carol's work has always been a yin-yang to me. Wearer vs. clothing, man vs. woman, life vs. death, hard vs. soft. Carol seems to be enamored with these ideas. There's violence in his clothes that I just love.

All this is done while Carol works within the parameters he set himself each season in terms of material experimentation. "Pea in the Pod" dresses constructed of fabrics with crushed glass, knitting with treated sausage casings, etc. etc. I don't think it detracts from the fact that he is making clothing for women.

Carol is an experimenter. The early Fe-Male collections are most definitely extreme and are haute couture on the gnarly side of the spectrum versus say Galliano's haute couture. They are quintessentially wearable art... that you'd probably never leave the house wearing.

To my understanding, Carol still produces his pieces in womens sizes. He hasn't pushed the specifically womenwear concepts of his further lately but his designs, although in a way masculine, are not unflattering on women either.


... of course this is just how I see him



PS- in regards to the translucent leather, a few tanneries had experimented with the material in the past and Carol used this to make some limited experimental pieces. It's not that durable to my understanding as it's not "leather" in the dictionary sense of the word but rawhide processed in a way to make it flexible while remaining translucent. Creases will eventually whiten the leather changing the texture. Here is a pair of the sole-less oxfords done in this (with an opaque lining) translucent "leather":







Over time I believe the leather gets less translucent and stiffer as well. From my research it seems like a big component in softening is glycerine (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) and this is not a component that will stay there forever.

Conceptually very interesting though!


Great discussion guys :)

[Johnny]

great post albert, and the pics of the shoes at the end are really interesting. I take it those never went into production? Has he ever made oxfords apart from those flattened out ones?

[Chinorlz]

haha, I was all excited reading the postings/discussion on the subject today. It's been a while since any topic on Carol sparked anything that made people post more than 4 sentences and was on his concepts :)

I think the shoes above went into limited production... probably one of those edition of 4 type things. Not sure if he ever made any other oxford style either unfortunately. The only ones I know of are the style he issues now, those that were compressed flat down the center then soled and those posted above.

In the past he's done at least 3 different types of sneakers but these days it seems like it's oxfords and boots although this coming season seems to bring something else interesting to the table!

[justine]

it is two strips of sticky tape on the face

True. Old-school Leigh Bowery trick.

[philip nod]

this is on iPhone so forgive. keV curated a monster when he threw up the lookbooks and tossed the men in with the woman. this is a great dicussion one at the very heart of fashion and after reading alberts post thinking maybe this is next level analysis. I encourage everyone to post. this might potentially be the most ineteresting (positive) discussion on sz in awhile

[Faust]

^Do you remember what designers they carried? I am curious to know what they saw as daring and individualistic...

Not really. It lasted a year. They did have Ann for one season.

[therapysessions]

Thought I'd share this awesome photo I took today of Yuji, stylist at Robert Geller, and his CCP gloves.

[asho]

regarding the translucent leather shoes... those are in fact derbys not oxfords. As far as softening goes, sometimes Vaseline can be used to soften leather. it is applied, rubbed in then evaporated with a heat gun, it can also be used to remove wrinkles in shoes. i'm not sure but i would hypothesise that the the oil content could potentially cause raw hide to become translucent...

did chalayan's cast dresses precede poell's? it seems the two work with similar shapes and silhouettes with distorted and subtracted simplicity.

[Chinorlz]

regarding the translucent leather shoes... those are in fact derbys not oxfords. As far as softening goes, sometimes Vaseline can be used to soften leather. it is applied, rubbed in then evaporated with a heat gun, it can also be used to remove wrinkles in shoes. i'm not sure but i would hypothesise that the the oil content could potentially cause raw hide to become translucent...

did chalayan's cast dresses precede poell's? it seems the two work with similar shapes and silhouettes with distorted and subtracted simplicity.

hehe, I'm not perfect with my footwear vernacular. Thanks for the correction. It's all boots and sneakers in my closet