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  • xcoldricex
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2006
    • 1347

    Re: Carol Christian Poell



    I think Poell is less conceptual than he was (as Johnny stated before - his women's line was very conceptual).. but he still has concepts to his collections - the problem is the names of the collections and the ideas of the collections aren't really told to very many people - this past collection poell was playing with the idea of larger people wearing his clothes - the massive, thick, cut sole on one of his boots/shoes to support added body weight, the ruched waist pants, etc. A lot of it turns out to be art rather than something you'd actually wear though.



    I like to think there are ideas behind most of the things he does - but he lets the buyer interpret it (or not) since he doesn't really explain himself - nor should he have to i guess.

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      Re: Carol Christian Poell



      Laika, I think it's definitely worth your time to read old runner's posts in the CDiem thread on tFS - he knows way more about them than I do. But I could tell you about the meathooks - CDiem started out exclusively as a leather goods maker, it's a nod to the tanneries that supply the leather.



      I think I also explained the concept of Linea in another thread. I do think that the Linea concept was overwrought - BUT, I respect when a designer sets himself certain constraints and then operates within them. It's one of the reasons I like Ann so much - she digs deeper and deeper into her own aesthetic, she doesn't necessarily care for doing something else - she has set her parameters and she is looking to evolve within them. It may look the same from the side, but as Nicole Phelps suggested on style.com it only looks that way for those that don't look close enough.



      P.S. This is an interesting discussion, indeed!

      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • laika
        moderator
        • Sep 2006
        • 3787

        Re: Carol Christian Poell



        Thanks for the responses, guys. Johnny and Faust, I have of course
        read those threads, some time ago. They are one of the primers for
        posting on SZ, after all.[;)]



        I know that there are concepts behind
        certain Continues garments and behind Poell's collections. Some of
        them are cool and thoughtful; some of them are just randomly
        whimsical. But I don't think the execution of these concepts is the
        appeal behind the clothes, as the concepts are not nearly as innovative
        or interesting as the experimentation that goes into the materials and
        craftsmanship. (I hope that makes sense, sorry if I sound convoluted)


        Personally, I don't care if they are conceptual or not. I
        have as much respect for artisans as I do for designers. What confuses
        the issue in the case of these guys, is that much of their appeal rests
        on the rarity and exclusivity of their work. They have to be tracked
        and hunted (men do love a good hunt [:P]). My interpretation of the Cdiem
        meat hooks was that they were meant to show where the garment comes
        from--to connect it with a pre-industrial craftsman rather than an
        alienated assembly line worker. That to me is a very beautiful (if
        romantic) concept in itself. The problem is, as Seventh has said in
        this thread before, that uber-high prices and exclusivity ironically
        reinforce this very alienation (particularly that of the consumer).



        Anyway, it is Albert who has brought up the issue of concept, in
        articulating his preference for these labels over others; and I think
        concept is a weak point of comparison. Quality materials, difficult
        processes, experimental production, etc., are all good things. But
        these alone do not a Margiela or a Junya make.



        p.s. runner has a really wonderful way of talking about this stuff, but
        isn't it significant that most of his posts are about materials etc.,
        or about unconventional business practices rather than concepts?

        ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

        Comment

        • Faust
          kitsch killer
          • Sep 2006
          • 37852

          Re: Carol Christian Poell

          /\ yes, runner himself stated that Poell and Altieri are more artisans rather than designers and that is what attracted him to their work.
          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

          Comment

          • laika
            moderator
            • Sep 2006
            • 3787

            Re: Carol Christian Poell

            btw, I also like what you said about Ann so much....that is one of the things I like best about her also. She operates within her own constraints; and she doesn't change for or with fashion, which makes her anti-fashion in a very cool way. It's actually very subversive on her part, and it has nothing to do with her particular aesthetic.
            ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

            Comment

            • Chinorlz
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 6422

              Re: Carol Christian Poell



              Don't worry Johnny. I feel no "ganging up" [:)] I like this discussion as it brings people with various fashion/design/concept interests together and makes us compare each other's likes and dislikes and why!




              I definitely did not mean to dismiss MMM or Junya or any other designer based purely on one piece or one idea. More specifically, I just don't find a "connection" with those designers. Just like there are people out there that DIE for Alaia, for McQueen, for Rick, or for others, I just find certain designers and just as often certain pieces (known and unknown designers) draw me to them.




              Johnny, the mention of not liking any Junya isn't purely due to the Lacoste piece(s) (aiyaa, I feel so bad as I keep coming back to it... unfortunately it's just the only "nameable" piece from him. Anything else from him is hard for me to describe so succintly). From numerous runway shows, photos of pieces and so on, it just doesn't "speak" to me you know? Inherently nothing wrong with Junya, MMM, Yohji etc. at all!




              The fashion world is just SO large. Even with the smaller menswear world it's still expansive with more and more designers hitting the racks and magazines each season. I like fashion. No... I LOVE fashion. I love the ideas the concepts the artistic nature of creating something that must be in the box that is "clothes' but not seeing it as limiting but as artistic license to create something and to take atypical approaches and ideas and applying them to clothes.




              To me, some people do this better than others. There are of course people out there that wear all sorts of old Versace and what many would consider "euro-trash" pieces. Most people on this forum would say that those pieces were horrible and disgusting but there's clearly a market for it all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for every designer there are fans and non-fans.




              Softgrey said it a long long time ago on tFS when she first handled Cdiem and said that the clothes "spoke" to her. I used to be all about Dior Homme. Faust can definitely attest to this [:P] as that's actually how I came to know him in the online world. As that line degenerated I naturally went searching for another brand that I felt like I connected with on a visceral level. Something that had a story, something that brought something new to the table that was distinct yet casual... someone who focused on what they do and not much else.




              Lots of designers fit this category (including the guys we've been talking about) and after seeing their stuff many many time (and seeing it hit deep discount many times as well) it just wasn't "me." I just guess the "story" behind MMM's lines doesn't strike a chord with me. Like others have said on here, it doesn't strike me as artisanal as say CCP/Continues/others along those lines (including a number of small German designers as I'm finding out here!).




              I hope I didn't come across as "shitting on" everything that is MMM, Junya et al. I like MMM as a store and as a concept. I just don't like his clothes as something I'd wear when given the option of something else. I LOVED MMM's hidden away store in London. I stumbled across it and immediately went in.




              For designers that make fashion interesting, I have a pretty wide range of interests. Galliano, (more recently) McQueen, Ann, CCP, Continues, various Japanese brands and in general just tidbits of street style. I know that my interests and way I dress sometimes borders on extreme which is why "safer" designers don't hold my interest as much. I'm constantly wanting to see something innovative and new and.... dark. Yep. Gotta love the gothicky designs a la Ann et al.




              As for the rarity/exclusivity argument (which Khiev was a big part of not too long ago), the stuff is indeed rare. In part due to how it's made for sure but also for many pieces I agree... it's due to them wanting it to be rare. It's not the rarity of it per se that brings all the fans for these brands (including me) but everyone likes dressing different- that is, those that care about fashion and dressing uniquely. When there's a line that creates pieces that awe me and at the same time I know I'll never have the "girl showed up at the homecoming dance with the same dress on as me" event ever occur is cool. Very cool.




              Don't get me wrong. My money is FINITE. Like just about everyone on this forum, I know fashion can be had for a fraction of retail. I rarely rarely buy retail. My recent CCP leather jacket purchase was my biggest purchase EVER. I'm a smart shopper and like many on here know how to find pieces for damn near Banana Republic prices. Either that, or I wait.




              Laika put it interestingly "Quality materials, difficult processes, experimental production, etc., are all good things. But these alone do not a Margiela or a Junya make."




              This can be true, but it depends on the viewer. Junya and Margiela are more widely known, more established than others who work with good materials, processing, experimental work, but are they "better"? A matter of opinion no? You'd easily split the forum down the middle if they were forced to choose one way or the other.




              So let's continue the discussion [:P]




              What makes a designer better than any other? There are so many designers that are well known and popular (either with the general public or with the fashionably esoteric crowd) but why does one choose one over the other?




              Whew! I hope that all made sense!


              www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

              Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

              Comment

              • Fuuma
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2006
                • 4050

                Re: Carol Christian Poell

                Wow, my little Margiela comparison sure started something unexpected, great discussion!! This is just a small remark but I think that when all is said and done, we can't dissociate the extremely high pricing of the garments offered by Poell, Altieri, Junya or Margiela and their ilk. This creates a kind of disconnect as the items often end up being acquired as status symbols instead of for their own intrinsic value, the price taking precedence over the work. While we may wax poetically about their artistic merits, they ultimately have an utilitarian purpose and are sold in a commercial context that sets them appart from the even more unaffordable pieces shown in museums and art galleries around the world.
                Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                Comment

                • xcoldricex
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 1347

                  Re: Carol Christian Poell

                  [quote user="laika"]

                  Thanks for the responses, guys. Johnny and Faust, I have of course
                  read those threads, some time ago. They are one of the primers for
                  posting on SZ, after all.[;)]



                  I know that there are concepts behind
                  certain Continues garments and behind Poell's collections. Some of
                  them are cool and thoughtful; some of them are just randomly
                  whimsical. But I don't think the execution of these concepts is the
                  appeal behind the clothes, as the concepts are not nearly as innovative
                  or interesting as the experimentation that goes into the materials and
                  craftsmanship. (I hope that makes sense, sorry if I sound convoluted)


                  Personally, I don't care if they are conceptual or not. I
                  have as much respect for artisans as I do for designers. What confuses
                  the issue in the case of these guys, is that much of their appeal rests
                  on the rarity and exclusivity of their work. They have to be tracked
                  and hunted (men do love a good hunt [:P]). My interpretation of the Cdiem
                  meat hooks was that they were meant to show where the garment comes
                  from--to connect it with a pre-industrial craftsman rather than an
                  alienated assembly line worker. That to me is a very beautiful (if
                  romantic) concept in itself. The problem is, as Seventh has said in
                  this thread before, that uber-high prices and exclusivity ironically
                  reinforce this very alienation (particularly that of the consumer).



                  Anyway, it is Albert who has brought up the issue of concept, in
                  articulating his preference for these labels over others; and I think
                  concept is a weak point of comparison. Quality materials, difficult
                  processes, experimental production, etc., are all good things. But
                  these alone do not a Margiela or a Junya make.



                  p.s. runner has a really wonderful way of talking about this stuff, but
                  isn't it significant that most of his posts are about materials etc.,
                  or about unconventional business practices rather than concepts?



                  [/quote]



                  I don't know - I think concept is important - even if it's as simple as to create finely tailored clothes, clothes to feel comfortable in, or whatever. I feel like I have more of a connection to people who are passionate about something - people that lack passion are very boring to me. Almost all of the designers I like (basically everything stated above) have a concept, goal, theme they work toward and on't compromise.



                  I don't really see why pricing has gotten so much attention lately - since it's been discussed in similar fashion on almost every fashion board i post on - it's not like designer fashion prices went up 500% in the past year. Should your opinion on someone's work be tainted just because it's expensive? For me, rarity wouldn't determine if I would or wouldn't buy something - maybe it's nice that I'll be one of x amount of people that own something - but who cares? The only time I see this as a problem is if there is something associated to the garment that has connotations with something I do not like/agree with/prescribe to/ etc. having something that's rare (in this realm of fashion at least) probably would not have any of those things.



                  Sorry if this isn't very coherent - I'm posting while listening to lectures ;)

                  Comment

                  • laika
                    moderator
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 3787

                    Re: Carol Christian Poell



                    coldrice, i guess I was thinking "concept" in a narrower sense than that. The comparison was to Margiela and Junya, both of whom are conceptual with a capital "C", as are Rei, Chalayan, etc. I don't consider Rick Owens conceptual in this way; but of course I believe he works with a concept. Hope that makes sense....you can definitely be passionate without being conceptual though!




                    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                    Comment

                    • justine
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 672

                      Re: Carol Christian Poell

                      There's a nice story I heard once about designer and what constitutes the value of their work. Here it is:



                      The Countess Treriche decides to go to the most acclaimed hat designer in town to order a custom made hat she desires to wear at the next party she's attending. She makes the order, and is told to come back in 2 weeks.

                      2 weeks later, she comes back and is offered the hat. It is made of a single black silk ribbon, in an intricate and beautiful form with several pins. When she looks at the bill, she complains to the designer about the price: "$2000 for this, a ribbon and some pins?"

                      The designer then says "Oh! Yes, sorry. Unties the ribbon and the pins, lays it flat on the counter and says: $50 for the ribbon an pins".





                      I tried to make this story make sense, I hope it does.

                      Comment

                      • Faust
                        kitsch killer
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 37852

                        Re: Carol Christian Poell



                        /\ haha, that's funny.



                        Anyway, just wanted to say that it's a great discussion on all parts - thank you, people, this is what makes these forums great (faust tears).



                        Fuuma, as far as prices - yes, that's a burden. I am assuming you are talking retail prices (other discussion is no longer meaningful, as we've showed time and time again that you don't need to break the bank to own many of these clothes), and I'm afraid we've speculated enough on this as well. I am only awaiting someone who works for one of the designers on a business side to join these boards and tell us the story of how it really is. I don't think our price discussion is sophisticated enough. As some of you know I have a finance degree, and I've speculated on their pricing models, but these are only speculations - who really knows what goes on there. Actually, I know someone who is a designer, I should pick his brain.

                        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                        Comment

                        • sbw4224
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 571

                          Re: Carol Christian Poell

                          I would love to know more about the pricing models. I know a decent amount about the cost actual stores have for items, but it's a whole different game when it comes to the actual production. I'd love to get into the business side of fashion, it seems to interesting to me. Of course, that observation is coming from someone with no real clue about the production aspect of designers ;).

                          Comment

                          • Seventh
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 270

                            Re: Carol Christian Poell



                            i want to echo the interesting discussion comments.

                            Laika pretty much covered the points I wanted to say, only with intelligence and diplomacy. [51]
                            Albert, I respect your enthusiasm for Poell, Carpe, et al. but I think you approach fashion with blinders on. Have you really looked at Junya's work? And all you really identify from Junya is the Lacoste collaboration? That?s like saying the logo cycling shirts that Drexl posted are representative of Poell.

                            I am interested in fashion that has an intellectual depth, has a context and a relationship to the world around it, and challenges (positively) both the wearer and viewer.

                            It seems that Poell and Carpe trade on a type of elitism that is purely economic. If you take away the super-expensive raw materials, what are you left with? Some interesting cuts and stitching perhaps, but not exactly groundbreaking. I hardly find their fashion cutting edge, it honestly seems like upscale gothic-industrial standards. They are excellent artisans, but the language and the way they limit their work is so absolutist and elitist, it betrays the whole artisan ethos.

                            junya, rei, margiela, chalayan etc... are humanists, in my mind. So often their clothing reveals complex emotions: humor, memories, irony, aggression, a sense of history, complex definitions of sexuality, etc. I don't get that complexity from Poell's work, I feel like he just wants to make clothes that look cool and vaguely menacing (not that you would actually do anything violent 'cause that might mess up your $1000 pair of jeans), & I find that look tired and empty.

                            I am sorry my writing sounds a bit confrontational. I hope it is understood as a challenge not an attack.

                            Comment

                            • Faust
                              kitsch killer
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 37852

                              Re: Carol Christian Poell

                              [quote user="Seventh"]

                              i want to echo the interesting discussion comments.

                              Laika pretty much covered the points I wanted to say, only with intelligence and diplomacy. [51]
                              Albert, I respect your enthusiasm for Poell, Carpe, et al. but I think you approach fashion with blinders on. Have you really looked at Junya's work? And all you really identify from Junya is the Lacoste collaboration? That?s like saying the logo cycling shirts that Drexl posted are representative of Poell.

                              I am interested in fashion that has an intellectual depth, has a context and a relationship to the world around it, and challenges (positively) both the wearer and viewer.

                              It seems that Poell and Carpe trade on a type of elitism that is purely economic. If you take away the super-expensive raw materials, what are you left with? Some interesting cuts and stitching perhaps, but not exactly groundbreaking. I hardly find their fashion cutting edge, it honestly seems like upscale gothic-industrial standards. They are excellent artisans, but the language and the way they limit their work is so absolutist and elitist, it betrays the whole artisan ethos.

                              junya, rei, margiela, chalayan etc... are humanists, in my mind. So often their clothing reveals complex emotions: humor, memories, irony, aggression, a sense of history, complex definitions of sexuality, etc. I don't get that complexity from Poell's work, I feel like he just wants to make clothes that look cool and vaguely menacing (not that you would actually do anything violent 'cause that might mess up your $1000 pair of jeans), & I find that look tired and empty.

                              I am sorry my writing sounds a bit confrontational. I hope it is understood as a challenge not an attack.



                              [/quote]



                              I'll take up that challenge in Albert's absense :-). I'll speak mostly to CDiem. In my mind the relationship between CDiem and the world is absolutely unquestionable, and it does reveal complex emotions. Taking up an artisanal tradition speaks volumes against mass production, cheap goods, and production of waste. It's one of the themes I will take up in my thesis. He does want his items to be timeless (as far as material deteriaration allows) - he does not want them to go to waste. That's why he doesn't like the concept of seasons, and sales. It's a certain pride in what you do, I can appreciate that. And if you think about it - high price could be a deterrent of not buying at all, but buying very little yet high quality. This day and age after we built up our wardrobes, how much do we really need to buy? How much should we want to buy? In the US, the more the merrier. I know some people who probably spend no less than I do on clothes, but they go through piles of garbage clothes that they throw out after a few months. If they sat down and did some financial analysis, maybe they'd be better off on more than one front. It's the American consumerist mentality at work - buy lots of cheap shit (we have negative average savings rate in the US, for gods sake - something uncivilized to the rest of the world). My finance professor once jokingly said, "I don't know what you guys were building in the Soviet Union - the real worker's paradise is here, abundant garbage for low-standard people." A different mentality exists elsewhere. In Europe, you simply don't see much of Gap type clothes, simply because noone would buy them (simply check European H&M lineup against that in the US one day). They DO have higher standards. The reverse side is that you can get there exactly what you cannot get here, much cheaper and well-made substitutes for designer clothes. High quality expensive clothes, I would argue, can force one to have a relationship with them, a certain respect for the clothes and for the people who made it. This relationship will make you think twice about butchering your clothes and then throwing it away because you know that some poor woman in India gets 50 cents in hour so you can buy a $10 tshirt and throw it out in a month.



                              If you think about it, Altieri is a Marxist ;-) . The fact that by nature of his mode of production (small quantities, excellent materials) becomes expensive is a fact that can definitely be usurped by someone who is a status-seeker. But, if you release something into the world, you have a very marginal control over who does what with it. And, btw, some of Junya's clothes, is probably just as overpriced - does anyone remember the $650 flimsy non-selvege denim jeans with the Norwegian flag? A simple Margiela cardigan costs $450 today, a simple cotton/silk Ann shirt made in Poland is $550. So, they are all in the same boat, really.



                              And about interesting cuts, fabrics, and fits - well, yeah!!! :-)

                              Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                              StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                              Comment

                              • laika
                                moderator
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 3787

                                Re: Carol Christian Poell



                                I don't know, Faust. [:(]



                                I hear what you are saying, and I would like to believe it myself. It's all very romantic and appealing, especially to those of us who can
                                afford to be romantic about these things--the handmade, the old
                                fashioned, etc. Perhaps that is indeed Altieri's aesthetic, or his "concept." But I don't think it is his ethics or his politics--unless you can assure me that the people who make his clothes can afford them (at retail)

                                ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                                Comment

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