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Thread: Carol Christian Poell

  1. #281

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    [quote user="Seventh"]

    I want to support ccp... I love some of his designs and I even like his mistakes (I would rather support a designer who makes the occasional crazy/stupid hair tie than one that is only concerned with functionality). But the prices... I can't. I can't comprehend, can't justify. I don't think I will ever be able to afford one of his leather pieces and honestly, as much as I like how they look, I don't know if I could wear his clothing without being acutely aware of the cost.



    The point is, like Laika mentioned, I don't think he needs to make clothes with such expensive materials/manufacturing cost, he could use his creativity and intelligence to subvert the market, but instead his clothes reinforce a certain type of cultural and economic elitism.



    It is all a little depressing, I feel like a marxist just thinking about it.



    [/quote]



    sh*t, that is so well said. I just read a bloody amazing essay called "Marx's Coat" that made me think something similar, but I couldn't quite express it.

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  2. #282

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    honestly, just like how it was mentioned in the "where to start..." thread, these labels serve as filters, and thus far, I'm really liking a lot of what Poell has produced. It's not about a feeling of exclusivity because I wouldnt give a damn if everyone was able to afford ccp, just as long ccp retains its sense of quality and artisanship. So what if everyone here gets to wear ccp? Whatever quantity Poell produces is his business, and who knows the reasons behind it, perhaps he'd rather not slave around and appreciate life. I'd still buy his jackets and his boots for sure, and obviously, it really does suck that the prices are sky high.... but that alone shouldnt be the reason why someone else should feel bothered because someone else can afford it. I do agree though that it's fucked up if someone is just getting the garment simply because it would help define some sort of elite status.

    But if what we're concerned here is about income distribution, and the what and what nots, then I think it's really unfair to just generally slander someone by saying that they appreciate naught but the level of exclusivity. Why cant someone be excited and passionate about finding all sorts of cool, high quality pieces of clothing and be able to afford it at the same time? It seems highly hypocritical for someone to say such a thing when the only means of truly knowing each others as people are through the posts on this forum. I certainly wouldn't be able to comfortably categorize someone's intentions and attitudes when all we get is but a glimpse of their souls.



    I certainly wasnt berating other designers such as Chalayan: if someone can point me to a designer who has the same level of
    "creativity, thought and passion" with at the same time a lower price
    point, similar aesthetics and the same level of quality, then I would
    certainly welcome any suggestions. Isn't that why we're all excited about
    finding all these new niche brands?


  3. #283
    Senior Member Casius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    I like to think of the pants forming a "C" instead so it is the first letter to my name. [:)]

    But in all seriousness, I do like what Carol does with clothing. Is his clothing expensive? Yes, but I think he offers something different to the market place, whether this is worth it, is up to the consumer. This is kind of relative to the post I made about letting style other than cost to determine the market. What I think needs to happen is there needs to be a company of a similar aesthetic that costs a fraction of the price [;)] to spread out some of the market. This might show how many people buy Carol for 'Carol' and how many buy for the aesthetic and quality.
    But let's face it, we all care somewhat about designer clothing and certain looks otherwise we wouldn't spend time on a fashion forum. I do think CCP's look could be produced at half the price, but this is obviously not where CCP wanted to take the company.



    "because the young are whores. dealers come to carol to get the rock"

  4. #284

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    Seventh:



    I want to support ccp... I
    love some of his designs and I even like his mistakes (I would rather
    support a designer who makes the occasional crazy/stupid hair tie than
    one that is only concerned with functionality). But the prices... I
    can't. I can't comprehend, can't justify. I don't think I will ever be
    able to afford one of his leather pieces and honestly, as much as I
    like how they look, I don't know if I could wear his clothing without
    being acutely aware of the cost.



    The point is, like Laika mentioned, I don't think he needs
    to make clothes with such expensive materials/manufacturing cost, he
    could use his creativity and intelligence to subvert the market, but
    instead his clothes reinforce a certain type of cultural and economic
    elitism.

    It is all a little depressing, I feel like a marxist just thinking about it.



    I understand your point, but you can't slag someone just because they design clothes as how they think clothes should be made. That is his sweat and blood going into producing these clothes, and ideally, I like to think of it as his imprint of his personality and character on making these clothes. Obviously we all want a "perfect" designer who will be able to just 'subvert' the market just as described above, but in the end, it remains Poell's choice to establish and define himself in a socio-cultural context here. Who knows if he might do it in the future? Or perhaps he is not that someone. But right now, I'm just in awe of his genius, and I'm just glad that I'm able to own some of his pieces.... not because I get this feeling of exclusivity, but for all the reasons aforementioned.


  5. #285

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    khiev, my post wasn't directed at you. And no one here is judging, let alone "slandering" anyone. [51]



    I and others are simply pointing out the philosophical consumer issues that such prices and exclusivity lead to. This is the kind of discussion that makes this forum great, after all.

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  6. #286

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    yes I know laika (where's that hug icon when you need it?!?)< I was simply illustrating another side of the story in my circumstances to keep things balanced. [B]

  7. #287

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    lol, i know, there is a lack of affectionate smilies. At least I was able to give you an un-wilted flower though. [:)]
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  8. #288
    Senior Member Casius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    [quote user="Seventh"]

    I want to support ccp... I love some of his designs and I even like his mistakes (I would rather support a designer who makes the occasional crazy/stupid hair tie than one that is only concerned with functionality). But the prices... I can't. I can't comprehend, can't justify. I don't think I will ever be able to afford one of his leather pieces and honestly, as much as I like how they look, I don't know if I could wear his clothing without being acutely aware of the cost.



    The point is, like Laika mentioned, I don't think he needs to make clothes with such expensive materials/manufacturing cost, he could use his creativity and intelligence to subvert the market, but instead his clothes reinforce a certain type of cultural and economic elitism.



    It is all a little depressing, I feel like a marxist just thinking about it.

    [/quote]

    I actually agree with Khiev on this one. Carol doesn't need to do anything, let alone make clothing, but he does because that is something he is passionate for (for all we know). I do think anything with expense brings connotations and forms of elitism, but this isn't to say you have to buy into that. Cars, watches, and homes all bring on the same feeling, but it is all in the buyer to determine what in fact they are buying it for.
    The fact that some can't justify the price (me included) has nothing to do with the fact CCP makes wonderful clothing that appeals to many people around the globe and you don't have to be some rich snob in order to wear expensive clothing or drive in an expensive car. It's all in the attitude of the wearer.
    "because the young are whores. dealers come to carol to get the rock"

  9. #289
    Senior Member Casius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    "because the young are whores. dealers come to carol to get the rock"

  10. #290

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    maybe Casius,



    but I think context matters. ccp does not exist in a black hole, and his participation in the fashion world is dependent (in part) on marketing and customers. I mean, he is not outside the market, even if he is not thinking about prices---rather, the choice to not think about prices is what bothers me.



    And I guess what I am saying is that the prices do change how I look at the garmet. I can't completely separate design, creativity and craft from cost and/or work.



    Khiev, I definately was not trying to judge you or anyone else who purchases ccp. My post was made directly out of frustration from my conflicting feelings about ccp. (hugs all round)


  11. #291
    Senior Member ddohnggo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    off topic of the current discussion, but does anyone know if the side zip boots come in size 6? i know that a size 7 is around a 9 or so in US size.
    Did you get and like the larger dick?

  12. #292

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    yes they do. I think Carol makes them down to a pretty small size. A carol size 6 is only a US 8. I think on y! there are even smaller ones.
    www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

    Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

  13. #293

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    [quote user="Casius"]


    [/quote]



    From me too.



    Can one of you CCP experts explain a bit more about how and where (more specifically than just Italy) the clothes are made, and who makes them? I've read through all through the usual articles and the tfs thread, but the production process is still very mysterious to me. (I suppose it's supposed to be, but any info would be much appreciated.)

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  14. #294
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    [quote user="khiev"]

    honestly, just like how it was mentioned in the "where to start..." thread, these labels serve as filters, and thus far, I'm really liking a lot of what Poell has produced. It's not about a feeling of exclusivity because I wouldnt give a damn if everyone was able to afford ccp, just as long ccp retains its sense of quality and artisanship. So what if everyone here gets to wear ccp? Whatever quantity Poell produces is his business, and who knows the reasons behind it, perhaps he'd rather not slave around and appreciate life. I'd still buy his jackets and his boots for sure, and obviously, it really does suck that the prices are sky high.... but that alone shouldnt be the reason why someone else should feel bothered because someone else can afford it. I do agree though that it's fucked up if someone is just getting the garment simply because it would help define some sort of elite status.

    But if what we're concerned here is about income distribution, and the what and what nots, then I think it's really unfair to just generally slander someone by saying that they appreciate naught but the level of exclusivity. Why cant someone be excited and passionate about finding all sorts of cool, high quality pieces of clothing and be able to afford it at the same time? It seems highly hypocritical for someone to say such a thing when the only means of truly knowing each others as people are through the posts on this forum. I certainly wouldn't be able to comfortably categorize someone's intentions and attitudes when all we get is but a glimpse of their souls.



    I certainly wasnt berating other designers such as Chalayan: if someone can point me to a designer who has the same level of
    "creativity, thought and passion" with at the same time a lower price
    point, similar aesthetics and the same level of quality, then I would
    certainly welcome any suggestions. Isn't that why we're all excited about
    finding all these new niche brands?



    [/quote]



    I am singling you out, but I want EVERYBODY to read this carefully. Go back and look at your posts. They are all WAYWT or Poell. You have contributed zero to this forums as far as fashion design discussion goes. StyleZeitgeist is first and foremost about discussing fashion design. It says so on the front page. It says that we recognize that commerce is a part of it, but only a part - your posts make it the whole thing. I don't see how you are different from the monkeys on SuperFuture who brag about their dunks, your fetish is just different. What you said in your post is good, but I don't see it as being true in your case. I don't understand how person can only like two brands and disregard the rest of the world. Filters? Fine, but filter means you still notice the whole world. We all have our favorites. Everyone knows how much I love Ann, and when the time is due, I say it. Johnny loves Junya, nqth will die for Rei Kawakubo. But at the same time, we talk about fashion design in general. We look at other work. We are genuinely happy when we see something interesting, even if it doesn't suit OUR PERSONAL needs. We feel the Zeitgeist. You have not made a single comment on the new collections. We are all elitist here in a certain sense, but we also have common sense. Your "I only wear Rick Owens tees" comments are bullshit. Comments like these turn people who come here to learn off .



    You are asking for creative designers, but only those who suit your own needs. Let me tell you something, Carol, as much as I love his work, can't hold a fucking candle to Alexander McQueen, Junya Watanabe, or Hussein Chalayan, or Rei Kawakubo, or Yohji, or Margiela. These people have made a revolution, a cultural shift that has reaped benefits far and wide. They are important.



    Anyway, my point is, I created these forums to discuss fashion design. I created these forums as an alternative to tFS to be focused more on design, rather than on models, "it" bags, and games. I want to see this reflected in the discussion. When I see 2:1 post ratio in shopping:designers work, I do not like it.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  15. #295
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    [quote user="laika"][quote user="Casius"]


    [/quote]



    From me too.



    Can one of you CCP experts explain a bit more about how and where (more specifically than just Italy) the clothes are made, and who makes them? I've read through all through the usual articles and the tfs thread, but the production process is still very mysterious to me. (I suppose it's supposed to be, but any info would be much appreciated.)



    [/quote]



    I think he gets his leather from Guidi & Rossellini. It's one of the oldest tanneries in Tuscany. He has an atelier in Milan where pretty much everything is made. I'm not sure where gets his other fabrics. He's done some work for Buttero, but I think he makes footwear in-house too. The overlock stitching you see comes from an old industrial sewing machine he found somewhere - it was originally used to sew coffee bean bags together, that's why it can handle very thick threads.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  16. #296

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    Gosh, it's quiet round these parts all of a sudden.

  17. #297

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    Faust's post killed this thread. I'm starting a CCP v2 thread so we can continue discussion.



    I kid, of course ;)


  18. #298

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    Wow, a lot has happened in the last 16 hours or so!



    A lot of good points have been made here regarding CCP and other niche brands.



    Fanaticism about a singular line is found for every designer. Just look at the Dior MSN group. I remember posting there ALL the time because that's the only designer I used to buy. If it wasn't Dior, I pretty much wasn't interested. It was only after it really started to go downhill that I was essentially forced to check out other designers and other fashion houses.



    Like many on here, my tastes developed, matured and evolved (we all had our Dior phase no?) and through SZ and to a lesser extent tFS I was able to find and love other brands (I never would have known about Julius if it wasn't for those on here incl. djraijo).



    I'm partially guilty of giving certain designers more cred than perhaps they deserve at times. CCP and Maurizio (well... both Maurizio's) have strokes of genius. Often times many strokes of genius, but like others they have their failures as well or bouts of mediocrity (flask necklace, bow legged pants from Altieri etc). I like CCP because I find that he pushes the creative envelope in a unique, almost indescribable way. Offset stitchwork, overlock stitchwork (I've found the machines that can do this... cost about $500-700 haha), creative cuts and fabric usage. The other more known guys out there just don't spend as much time on these things I feel.



    I have Ann pieces for myself because every so often she creates something that makes me go 'wow!" but like many on here, I've seen the creativity and the lovely darkness sort of stagnate as of late. I can't speak for many of the other designers but what i've seen of Junya and Dries for men, it's just been not my cup of tea. I can appreciate the way Issey pushes the envelope and experiments (A-POC is such an awesome concept for example), but I can't wear his clothes. They ultimately just aren't that interesting. As for Yohji, I may be coming around [;)]



    There may be some level of elitism for some when purchasing a CCP item. After all, aren't only 4000 or so pieces produced each season as someone had mentioned? At the same time, I think Carol perpetuates (maybe not quite elitism per se, but) the idea that each of his pieces are precious. Each boot is stamped with the number that it is and almost all the items come with that little pamphlet that says what number your piece is out of how many. The line between thinking, "Yes!! I have only ONE of 27 in the world! And it's an awesome piece!" and "Ha, you can't even get this if you wanted to because there are no more and I have one" grays in this situation.



    In the end, CCP consistently comes out with pieces that wow me. Certainly, other brands have one or two items and I do get them every so often but (maybe it's an asian thing haha) I'm loyal once I find a brand (or small handful of brands) that I love and am attracted to/love the philosophy of. It used to be Dior, and after some experimentation it's now CCP, Continues, Rick et al.



    I don't like to think of it as elitism. I certainly dont think I'm "better" than my friends who don't wear anything remotely like my stuff and for those on this forum I don't think it's about elitism either. I think of it as an appreciation of aesthetics, concepts and designs. I love it so I want to own it. It's like a piece of artwork. There's love in it unlike something from the Gap. It's why I love fine foods, good cheeses etc. Clearly it's a personal thing as the majority of the population doesn't give a rats ass about CCP, Dior, Saks, Barneys etc... the reason why Old Navy is like the Super Wal-Mart of the clothing world.



    I'll applaud (and happily purchase when I can..) Carol's designs, Amadei's designs, Owens' designs and Altieri's but money is still money and there are limits. I've actually been thinking about the U shaped pants (which I don't think the Lift photos do justice. They should have put the white pair on the model so you can see the full twisting effect. I'll make a quick mini version sometime this weekend to show you guys) and I think I can make them myself. I give him credit for testing out new cuts that no one else would and having the capability and the balls to produce it for sale, but some of the items I just want to make myself (a la the MA+ accordion bag). Other pieces like the leathers and shoes, i'll get his because I can't do it at home.



    hehe, this ended up being much longer than I intended! I hope it all makes sense!





    Happy friday guys,



    A

    www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

    Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

  19. #299

    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell



    Offense not taken obviously because I did come here to learn about other designers, but if you want to single me out because I like poell, then so be it. I dont understand why you're getting on my case for making the rick owens t comment- I've stated my reasons, and for me again, it's all about the garment. Do you think rick owens himself would wear other t-shirts, maybe he does (if he did, do you think he would even think that "oh, I'm wearing this t-shirt cos it costs $250 in stores), maybe he doesnt, I dont care, but the point is that he probably wears it because he wont settle for an alternative when he goes out. Well that's the same for me- do you think I wear the bloody t-shirt because I unconsciously think "oh, it's f*cking $250 and I feel good wearing ?" I coluldnt care less if the t-shirt was $10 rom american apparel- I would still buy it. Just point me out to a t-shirt as cool as his. And besides, I never intended to mean that I wear rick owens t only. Of course I wear other t-shirts, but I'm defending my actions for wearing his t-shirts a lot, and that's my choice. Not to be an elitist but for stylistic reasons.




    I have stuff from margiela, yohji, mcqueen, and even chalayan, and again, my posts thus far only relate to what I know, or to what I own. How in the world do you see it as I like two designers when I always make purchases from other ones? Is it because I only post in two designer threads? Well unfortunately Faust, I apologize because the reason I dont post in cdiem nearly as much although I love his work, nor the other designers, is that I simply dont have much to contribute even if I wanted to.



    I dont have to post my purchases on the "recent purchases" thread just to prove that I have an affinity for other designers. But if I feel like talking about ccp, or rick owens, then that's my problem.



    Second, I never asked about pple who made a cultural revolution- I asked for someone with his sort of creativity, aesthetics, and sense of artisanship. I never doubted those other guys in the socio-cultural context...and I respect their work very much, but just because I do respect their work doesnt mean that I have to contribute their in order to achieve some sort of ratio.



    Obviously, you created this forum, and obvious I dont conform or make 2:1 ratio posts in shopping:designers work, so I'll simply be happy and make my way out of here. It was fun while it lasted. Ciao.




  20. #300
    Senior Member ddohnggo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carol Christian Poell

    it's kind of funny how a lot of this parallels people's interest in music and record collecting. regardless, nice post albert.
    Did you get and like the larger dick?

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