Carol Christian Poell

[Buckwheat]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[quote user="bellapietra1501"]


where did you get those pictures? i always wanted one of the side zip boots in black. cant wait till these come out. thanx for the pics.

[/quote]

pictures from honeyee.com. I think you can find them at barneys.co.jp.

[justine]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

(repeat endlessly) I am getting a pair I am getting a pair I am getting a pair ...



I really like the shoes too, mostly because they fit in a more formal look, and bring a definite something. I love (LOVE) the boots, but somehow I've seen them too much (I guess I surf this web site and go to Atelier too much because they're not really mainstream).



Also, I really don't see how the "Arte Povera" would apply to boots but not really shoes. I don't put Poell work in the Arte Povera section, is it really ?

[ionn26]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

I am really disappointed by the boots this season. The base is sooooo boring.. just plain white wood.. I guess the only good thing is the contrast. I prefer the past season boots that has more work on it ie leaving horsehair and making it look like used.. so much more intense.

[Faust]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



[quote user="justine"](repeat endlessly) I am getting a pair I am getting a pair I am getting a pair ...



I really like the shoes too, mostly because they fit in a more formal look, and bring a definite something. I love (LOVE) the boots, but somehow I've seen them too much (I guess I surf this web site and go to Atelier too much because they're not really mainstream).



Also, I really don't see how the "Arte Povera" would apply to boots but not really shoes. I don't put Poell work in the Arte Povera section, is it really ?[/quote]

Well, the shoes look really beat up, that's why I said it. I think some of his work could classify as Arte Povera. That's all loosely speaking, of course.

[Fuuma]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[quote user="Faust"]

[quote user="justine"](repeat endlessly) I am getting a pair I am getting a pair I am getting a pair ...



I really like the shoes too, mostly because they fit in a more formal look, and bring a definite something. I love (LOVE) the boots, but somehow I've seen them too much (I guess I surf this web site and go to Atelier too much because they're not really mainstream).



Also, I really don't see how the "Arte Povera" would apply to boots but not really shoes. I don't put Poell work in the Arte Povera section, is it really ?[/quote]

Well, the shoes look really beat up, that's why I said it. I think some of his work could classify as Arte Povera. That's all loosely speaking, of course.

[/quote]

I would say that's where his Margiela filliation lies; Poell has an interest in materials that appear lived (or sometimes died and buried) in. Used leather, raw edges, discoloration, dislocated shapes, those could be considered Arte Poverta. I'm sure someone would object that Margiela is much more in tune with that art movement, turning the discarted trappings of modern society into luxury commodities and impressive art objects, while Poell uses the same luxurious materials than other designers but subvert their purpose by re-working them.

[Faust]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

/\ Yes, I agree. Poell and CDiem can be called pseudo-arte povera, or inverted arte-povera, because they use luxurious expensive materials but make them look "poor," which is the reverse of what Margiela does (taking found objects and reworking them into something new). I have to say, I have trouble paying money for workmanship alone, that's why I never bought those reworked Champion sweatshirts :-) .

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



[quote user="Faust"]/\ Yes, I agree. Poell and CDiem can be called pseudo-arte povera, or inverted arte-povera, because they use luxurious expensive materials but make them look "poor," which is the reverse of what Margiela does (taking found objects and reworking them into something new). I have to say, I have trouble paying money for workmanship alone, that's why I never bought those reworked Champion sweatshirts :-) .
[/quote]

Love how this was put Faust. Really well!

CCP and CDiem take really great stuff and break it down to make it look "poor" but with that luxurious edge still there.

I don't really like MMM because he does the opposite. Stylistically it's really a cool idea and works sometimes but the remade vintage pieces... eh..... they're always just blah to me. He didn't really DO anything, he just surfed some thrift stores and said "oh, let's put this out again and throw my tag on it for more money".

the whole reworking items thing is one of the reasons I will never buy Junya. The whole CdG x Lacoste thing where 5 shirts were taken apart and resewn into one shirt is just crap. Totaly crap. It pisses me off just thinking about it. Gah. Piece of shit lacoste polo for $400 at IF. I hope he sold nary a single one.

[Johnny]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

I bought two....

[Johnny]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



I really don't think you can dismiss margiela and watanabe just like that. It's absolutely fair enough to say you don't like it....don't like the product.....but to say that he doesn't do anything, with a jacket made out of watch straps or belts or whatever it is! There's real talent there. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't wear it, but wouldnt dismiss it either. The reworking of existing garments in a new way is a good idea to me, a good design idea; entirely valid and worthwhile. As opposed to burying some leather in the desert for a while.....what is the "producer" doing there?

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[quote user="Johnny"]


I really don't think you can dismiss margiela and watanabe just like that. It's absolutely fair enough to say you don't like it....don't like the product.....but to say that he doesn't do anything, with a jacket made out of watch straps or belts or whatever it is! There's real talent there. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't wear it, but wouldnt dismiss it either. The reworking of existing garments in a new way is a good idea to me, a good design idea; entirely valid and worthwhile. As opposed to burying some leather in the desert for a while.....what is the "producer" doing there?

[/quote]

Ah, my mistake. I should have clarified some. When I referred to the reissues, I was only talking about the vintage pieces that he just puts out again. No real reworking, just more of a reissue. I hate the fact that he just found something and then has a factory make it and then charges a premium for that. It's the same reason I hate marked-up price vintage stores. Kills me.

I like his artistic stuff (MMM... can't say too much of the same for Junya) and definitely don't dismiss him at all in that sense. His accessories are always novel and have a little twist to them. His clothes that I see in stores just bores me to death. It's conservative and safe. The subtleties in his work may be so much so that I don't get the genius behind it. I think Faust and I talked about this before [:)] There are some occasional "out there" pieces that he does that make me smile and remind me why he is who he is.

I just think design and thought into pieces is different than just literally taking something apart and putting it together again (a la the Lacoste shirts...) or putting out something that was already designed/made by someone else just a while ago (the MMM reissues).

Damn near no thought goes into those two things in my opinion. To me, these guys (and I'm not trying to single them out, they're just the first two that pop into my head) are taking advantage of their name/artistic license and just going with it.

It differs to me from say burying leather in the desert because a concept had to be developed along with the (very likely) heavy leather processing and reworking that goes into taking something so dessicated and breathing some novel life into it in the form of something so wearable and yet so precious.

I suppose one can parallel that with MMM and Junya's ideas of taking something so banal or tossed aside (buried and "left for dead" versus discarded, forgotten clothes from another era) and bringing it back and making it worth something again. An interesting concept in it of itself no?

[Johnny]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



It's possibly an interesting concept Albert, but not necessarily so. Depends on the motives of the designer/producer to some extent. I don't think it's interesting in an of itself just to do something outlandish for the sake of it - it becomes fashion cliche at that point I think. In that sense there is a bit of a parallel between the watches jacket and the buried leather. But one is just a concept and the other involves more thought and expression and skill to bringit to the product. One strikes me as evidence of a fierce imagination and desire to produce something new and interesting and the other just of decadence and to some extent laziness.

Junya's menswear is hit and miss Iwould concede (although I don't think you were offering any hits!) I don't wear the lacoste polos very much........[*-)]

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[quote user="Johnny"]


It's possibly an interesting concept Albert, but not necessarily so. Depends on the motives of the designer/producer to some extent. I don't think it's interesting in an of itself just to do something outlandish for the sake of it - it becomes fashion cliche at that point I think. In that sense there is a bit of a parallel between the watches jacket and the buried leather. But one is just a concept and the other involves more thought and expression and skill to bringit to the product. One strikes me as evidence of a fierce imagination and desire to produce something new and interesting and the other just of decadence and to some extent laziness.

Junya's menswear is hit and miss Iwould concede (although I don't think you were offering any hits!) I don't wear the lacoste polos very much........[*-)]

[/quote]

That's the line that I think best sums up opinions of people for just about all brands. Almost one or the other.

I agree. There is definitely outlandish for decadence's sake (that one clothing line where they do gold rivets with gold thread precious jewels on jeans for you.... the billionaire boys club clothes with crystals/diamonds on it etc.), but I've never considered what CDiem/Continues did as outlandish really. The burying leathers in the desert isn't really their forte (nor do I think they did it more than a couple of times mostly with Linea pieces). In their leather and fabric construction and treatments I think the preciousness comes from the fact that they wanted to create everything in-house. In a sense that is decadence because you get a piece that is quite unique and hand-made (in fact, in the deep red LMaltieri work coat I have on my webstore, I found a pin left in the bottom hem from the pinning of the construction!). There's that complexity that is there in work from the Continues line which I think is different than certain Margiela and Junya pieces (I swear I'm not trying to beat up on these two! Sorry guys!).

I've been beating up on his Lacoste polos... only because I can't really think of any other examples (well... there's the Fred Perry x Junya....).

I HAVE seen some really beautiful blazers Junya did seasons and seasons ago using some crazy custom textured/patterned fabric that was out of this world. Now... definitely unwearable but construction-wise. Top notch. Only Elton John would wear it, but as a piece of art, as a "work", it was a sight to behold.

For MMM, I think his womenswear is 100x more interesting than his menswear (god some of the pieces when modeled.... amazing!). I see the menswear as just a notch above basics and staples. Margiela knows how to make pieces for the everyman that wants to look clean and well dressed. But Margiela pieces don't stand out IMHO. You wear Margiela and you may look good, but you'll still blend in with the crowd.

[Faust]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



There is definitely place for both aesthetics - the "safe" and the "standing out." I think what unites them is care. Clearly Altieri cares about what he does - it is evident in the long and painstaking process of creating the things he creates. Similarly, the little quirky details Margiela adds to the basics is a sign of care - it takes deep care to just look closely at a basic item of clothing and think about what one can change about it. I don't think he does it for the sake of a gimmick, I think he genuinely wants to do something special. What I also like about Margiela is that he brought back the concept of a maison - it really is a design team, and I like how he refuses to personally take credit for the work they produce.

BTW, speaking of burying stuff - a long time ago Margiela did a presentation for an Amsterdam museum where he had natural elements, such as mold interact with the clothes. ;-)

[laika]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Very well said, Faust.

Albert, it seems rather reductive to
judge Junya and Margiela on a) the basis of one facet of their designs
(re-construction and/or re-issue) and b) their menswear. (I
understand that this is not necessarily your intention, but it still
comes across.) What Junya/comme have innovated in tailoring/technical
execution; what Margiela has contributed to fashion in terms of concept
are obviously far and beyond re-worked polos or "replicas."



Poell and Cdiem do some interesting and quirky designs, and to be
sure, they use some of the most precious materials out there to execute
them. Junya can take the most ordinary or traditional fabric--denim or
army green twill or tweed--and make a jacket that is not only
conceptually re-constructed, but impeccably tailored. Margiela can
take the cover of a cushion and literally turn it into a top (the
"artistic" stuff) or he can take the concept of the cushion and turn it
into a perfect dress (the stuff you see in stores). Lanvin (who you've
also criticized on a similar basis before) takes haute couture
materials and techniques and turns them into exquisite ready-to-wear. How you can call into question the
"care" that these designers take with their work; or the "preciousness"
of many of their garments is beyond me. Especially in the case of
Alber Elbaz--I don't think there is a designer alive who loves his work
and his client as much as he does.

I have great respect for the artisanal skills of CCP and Cdiem, and for
the tradition of making things that they bring back. I can't say I
respect their concept, because I have yet to understand or hear what
that concept is. Yes, their stuff is unique, handmade and rare; and
the processing and reworking that goes into the production of their
materials and pieces is most impressive. These are artisanal qualities
though, not conceptual ones. Where does the design concept--that would
make them comparable to the likes of Margiela--come in? Is it this
inverted Arte Povera thing? Is it what Cdiem is trying to say by
displaying clothes on meat hooks?



Sorry if I am just ignorant, but I wish someone would enlighten me....

[Johnny]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Excellent post Laika. Very interesting discussion, some of which is of course down to A. So don't feel that we're ganging up on you (!), but there's one other point that I wanted to come back to you on. You said that you would "never" buy JW because of the lacoste/reconstruction thing. I can't see how you can say that.It does make me think that your view must be that it doesn't really matter what the clothes look like - you don't agree with the concept behind one partcular aspect, so that means that none of his clothes would ever appeal to you.It's the same idea as saying"I am only going to buy clothes from x, y or z". I said exactly this, in relation to cdg, just last year after I was at the show that they did in the Sorbonne, and I saw all the guys going about in their little cdg suits and qirly sweaters. Then she did the gold collection and I sort of changed my mind!(And then I changed it back again, but only partly.) But in any case, it's certainly the wrong approach in my view - wearing clothes just becomes a box ticking, label collecting pastime (which is actually quite a "male" way of looking at things generally)

Anyway, I think that there is a concept with CCP and CDiem. Laika, I'm sure Albert will be able to recount this, as indeed will Faust, but if you look at some old threads from runner on tfs, you'll see him explain the concepts of the CDiem brands very elegantly. The only thing is that by its nature ("Continues"), the concept gets a bit dull becuase there's not much to it and it doesn't change. CCP is less conceptual than I think he used to be. He had an idea of doinga women's wardrobe based on three different sections - lower middle and upper. He did this accross a number of seasons so some of the promo pics would literally be of just the bottom part of a skirt up to say, upper thigh level. Not hugely practical. I'm not sure that he really followed this right through, since he has a habit of getting pissed off or bored and not doing anything for a year (decadence anyone?). I get the impression that he just concentrates more on quirky extremely well constructed"basics" in a way - shirts, trousers, jackets - with some degree of twist, quite literally sometimes.

As clothes designers, I don't think any of these guys can hold a candle to Rei, Yohji, YSL, McQueen (although I am certainly not a fan) or even Junya. Even if you don't wear this stuff, it's what makes fashion interesting.