Carol Christian Poell

[laika]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Of course it's relevant--I think we just want to maintain some level of organization, so as not to distract from the discussion of CCP here.[51]

arcdxxx, perhaps you could come over to the Junya thread and explain why you think these pictures are representative of Junya's work? I think they are a bit random, frankly. It's like posting a picture of the horsehair tie and saying it represents what Poell does--doesn't really to justice to his finer accomplishments. Everyone does silly things once in awhile, after all. I am less familiar with Junya's menswear (as in, I don't have many images saved), but I will surely post some women's pics.

In the context of this thread, it's interesting that you mention Junya's clothes as having a "sense of humor." I think that's exactly what attracts people to them. I have yet to see a Continues garment with a sense of humor, but I think CCP might have one--a dark one, to be sure.

Also wanted to add that I'm really happy to see so many people posting their views in here--it really makes for good discussion.

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Haha, yes... the whole visa thing was first brought to light thanks to Coldrice (my parents also reminded me of it after I purchased the tickets hehe).

So the discussion continues!

I may have come across wrong in regards to a dismissal of Junya/CdG and the like. It's not a statement that they are bad per se... just that I don't personally categorize them the same as CCP/Cdiem/Continues et al.

I thought about this on the ridiculously long train ride to Hamburg yesterday (by the way... if you are offered a trip to Hamburg. Don't go. Hamburg is boring.) and I think one of the major reasons I like CCP/Continues is this (and others have touched on this as well):

damn near every piece put out by these designers can be considered a WORK- a piece of art. If you were to do a percentage of genius/beautiful not-ordinary pieces versus their ordinary ones it'd be something like 95%to 5%. Compare this to Junya, MMM and others. it's (in my opinion) something close to 30% to 70% (for menswear. I cannot speak for pret-a-porter womenswear) if that.

This is why I can't remember or describe many other Junya/MMM etc pieces. They just don't stand out to me. They get lost in the mix with other designers I see at Barneys.

Every time I see pieces from Continues and CCP I go "wow." Something as simple as a t-shirt can be re-innovated and recut in a novel and creative way (for example that CCP tee that was on Yoox). Bring in LUC constructions and knits along with Sartoria cuts and it's light years ahead of many other designers in terms of working with the fabrics. These people have worked in their niche for years with really quite extreme focus whereas other designers have had to thin themselves out (MMM for Hermes for example).

It' possible that being part of a large fashion house lends one to dilute their idea reserves. If you think about it, the requirements asked of larger fashion house designers is on the order of HUNDREDS of designs whereas Luca just has to come up with say... 50-75 per season and most are evolutions built on his developing concepts.

I parallel it (and it's gonna be nerdy.. but hey I'm an asian male who loved comics back in the dayhahaha) to the smaller comic book companies versus say Marvel or DC. Who put out the comics with the BEST artwork, the BEST storylines? Those that worked on their own schedule and could spend the time they wanted to on what they wanted to. They were using their artistic license correctly. The poor guys at DC had to crank out an issue of Superman/Batman etc once a week! In that situation, quality goes down, creativity goes down. The product and name is still there, but it's not the same.

Image comics was comprised of illustrators and writers that were tired of these sorts of deadlines and spunoff on their own thing. Look at what was created.... Sin City, Spawn, etc.

So my argument is not about the cost of items (we all know that the prices are ridiculous for CCP and much of CDiem... although Dior Homme is getting up there so quick that it's ridiculous to even consider a DH piece over a Continues one because the prices are so close and sometimes even Continues is cheaper for better leather!) at all. As Faust and others have said, there are ways of smart shopping. Discounts are ALWAYS available to those that can find them.

In the end I would prefer to wear a piece from a line that produces Piece after Piece instead of having to go through dozens of racks before I find the one "hit" from a more mainstream designer.

On tFS/Dior Homme MSN ForumI recall it being mentioned that the asian purchasing mentality is a bit different (although I don't know if it's fully true for us American born asians... but anyways...). It's about finding one brand and then being totally loyal to it because why look elsewhere when you have something solid, sharp and great?

One piece a designer not make. CCP's bike shirts, CDiem's.... something. They make scheisse every so often as well. But more people on this forum can name 5 signature pieces from Continues/CCP than 5 signature items from Junya/MMM and the like.

[laika]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

Albert, thanks for your post, and for being such a good sport. [51]



You always fall back on personal taste in your responses. I agree that
it's interesting to hear about people's likes and dislikes and the
reasons for them; but I don't think this discussion is really about
that. Why you personally like what you like is not in question here.
What is at stake is how we can objectively compare these labels to
others; and how we can judge the merits of a particular designer. I
don't agree that this is just a matter of opinion. I can recognize
something that is good even if I don't like it for myself, even if it's
not to my taste. And if it's good--whether it's Poell, Chalayan,
Mcqueen or Prada, whether its menswear or womenswear--I want to know
about it and talk about it. Even if I'm not going to buy it.



You can't judge Junya objectively on the basis of his menswear alone.
Your every-piece-is-a-work-of-art argument falls apart right there for
me, because every single Junya collection has multiple pieces--skirts,
jackets, coats--that are "works" in this sense. The fact that the
collections are larger and that there is therefore a greater number of
forgettable pieces, doesn't detract from this. If you want to say CCP
menswear is better than Junya's menswear, fine. But I want to know why
it is objectively better; not just that it's better because it happens
to "speak" to you and because it fits your personal style.



"But more people on this forum can
name 5 signature pieces from Continues/CCP than 5 signature items from
Junya/MMM and the like."


[^o)]
You said something similar before. What are you getting at with this?
That many SZ posters like Continues and CCP? That people who like
these labels don't know or care about avant-garde fashion design?
There are plenty of people who post only in the CCP and Continues
thread. Since they don't contribute to the forum at large, how is
their opinion of other designers relevant to this discussion?

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



[quote user="laika"]Albert, thanks for your post, and for being such a good sport. [51]

You always fall back on personal taste in your responses. I agree that it's interesting to hear about people's likes and dislikes and the reasons for them; but I don't think this discussion is really about that. Why you personally like what you like is not in question here. What is at stake is how we can objectively compare these labels to others; and how we can judge the merits of a particular designer. I don't agree that this is just a matter of opinion. I can recognize something that is good even if I don't like it for myself, even if it's not to my taste. And if it's good--whether it's Poell, Chalayan, Mcqueen or Prada, whether its menswear or womenswear--I want to know about it and talk about it. Even if I'm not going to buy it.

You can't judge Junya objectively on the basis of his menswear alone. Your every-piece-is-a-work-of-art argument falls apart right there for me, because every single Junya collection has multiple pieces--skirts, jackets, coats--that are "works" in this sense. The fact that the collections are larger and that there is therefore a greater number of forgettable pieces, doesn't detract from this. If you want to say CCP menswear is better than Junya's menswear, fine. But I want to know why it is objectively better; not just that it's better because it happens to "speak" to you and because it fits your personal style.

"But more people on this forum can name 5 signature pieces from Continues/CCP than 5 signature items from Junya/MMM and the like."

[^o)] You said something similar before. What are you getting at with this? That many SZ posters like Continues and CCP? That people who like these labels don't know or care about avant-garde fashion design? There are plenty of people who post only in the CCP and Continues thread. Since they don't contribute to the forum at large, how is their opinion of other designers relevant to this discussion?
[/quote]

No worries Laika! It's stimulating![:)]

I don't think one can truly appreciate a designer that isn't for them or in their taste. That's like saying you saying a Damien Hirst dot painting is boring but you give him credit for the simple design. You like it or you don't. I don't like the idea of just giving all of these established designers credit. It's spreading oneself too thin and money, time, energy is finite. I will note that a piece or a look on the runway here and there for many various designers are innovative or look good, but it doesn't make me truly give the designer credit.

The argument that there are still pieces in each collection even though it is huge also falls into this in a sense. It's like saying you found a $100 bill in a mound of shredded paper and then declaring that entire paper pile worth something just because of one small portion of it. Suddenly the entire pile takes on meaning because of one part?

I have to mostly use menswear for my arguments because I am not familiar with too much Junya womenswear. If you see the Junya thread on here though, there is practically no positive statement to be made on there!

As for objectively better, I think currently (the last couple/few years), CCP has done more experimentation and wearable innovation than Junya and his ilk. It's a tough balance to be distinctly creative yet allow the items to still be worn down the street. Junya makes some crazy looks that are at home only on the runway. You have to break down the pieces to make them even wearable. There of course is the odd CCP piece that raises eyebrows (hair necktie for example) but just about everything can be worn on the street and still be within socially acceptable standards.

The sentence about 5 pieces from CCP vs the others being named is not in particular about people specifically on this forum. Arguably those on SZ are INTO fashion and thus are more generally knowledgable all around about fashion than your everyman/woman. Even so, they may have a difficult time saying why Junya/MMM and the others are such standout designers whereas describing why Continues/CCP is good comes so easily. It may be incorrect to just use SZ as my sample pool but it's as close as I can get to a pool of fashionistas as it were.

So in the end it's still opinion. People have different aims when they talk about fashion. Some want to talk about ALL fashion, others just about those topics they can contribute to. Unfortunately I don't have anything scintillating to contribute to say a... Limi-Feu thread. All I can say is if something looks good or bad or if the execution on the runway; the pairing of the clothes is good. I don't (can't hahaha)wear the clothes, I've never seen the clothes in person, and my girlfriend doesn't wear the clothes. There's reasons why the RO, Continues, CCP and other threads are so highly visited and contributed to while others not so much. Again, SZ isn't the most accurate sample population, but it's still something no?

Objectively, do you feel that Continues, CCP et al are on the same plane as McQueen, Junya and the others? Less so? I think it has been touched about that some feel that Continues/CCP are more gimmicky to people which I can see as an argument hehe

[Faust]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



It is stimulating - that's exactly what I thought reading all the responses, it makes one think.

Albert, I also agree that the amount of people on the boards who are into certain brands is disproportionate. Obviously I would like more women to post about womenswear, and I am thankful that we have guys like Johnny, nqth, and Buckwheat whose aesthetic is different from mine (for example) but who think pretty much along the same lines. I don't agree though that one likes exclusively what one wears and cannot have an appreciation for what's out there. I certainly don't think this way. How do you find new things then? I think it's all about what horizons you want to set for yourself, and it seems that if you want to have a meaningful discourse about fashion, you will have to take into account the whole... Zeitgeist :-), if you will. I myself is of course guilty of this - sometimes I won't click on a new Versace collection, just because I am pretty confident that it will be shit... but I WILL click on Prada's because I have to be aware of what she does, because I want to know what other people see in her stuff, despite my firm opinion that the emperor has no clothes. Now, I am not in a position to heavily judge whose horizons are too narrow, (unless it gets to a fetishizing extreme in khiev's case) but the point is to ask oneself if one is interested in FASHION (the creative aspect of it, coupled with the utilitarian aspect of it), or is one here to satisfy one's vanity by exclusively posting their pictures in WAYWT? I think if one is interested in fashion, that it becomes hard to discount guys like Margiela, Yamamoto, Junya, etc., because they enrich FASHION. It may not be your cup of tea - and that's totally fine, but to stick with the art example, can you discount Duchamp for his role in the art world even though you think the Fountain is just a piss-bowl?

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[quote user="Faust"]


It is stimulating - that's exactly what I thought reading all the responses, it makes one think.

Albert, I also agree that the amount of people on the boards who are into certain brands is disproportionate. Obviously I would like more women to post about womenswear, and I am thankful that we have guys like Johnny, nqth, and Buckwheat whose aesthetic is different from mine (for example) but who think pretty much along the same lines. I don't agree though that one likes exclusively what one wears and cannot have an appreciation for what's out there. I certainly don't think this way. How do you find new things then? I think it's all about what horizons you want to set for yourself, and it seems that if you want to have a meaningful discourse about fashion, you will have to take into account the whole... Zeitgeist :-), if you will. I myself is of course guilty of this - sometimes I won't click on a new Versace collection, just because I am pretty confident that it will be shit... but I WILL click on Prada's because I have to be aware of what she does, because I want to know what other people see in her stuff, despite my firm opinion that the emperor has no clothes. Now, I am not in a position to heavily judge whose horizons are too narrow, (unless it gets to a fetishizing extreme in khiev's case) but the point is to ask oneself if one is interested in FASHION (the creative aspect of it, coupled with the utilitarian aspect of it), or is one here to satisfy one's vanity by exclusively posting their pictures in WAYWT? I think if one is interested in fashion, that it becomes hard to discount guys like Margiela, Yamamoto, Junya, etc., because they enrich FASHION. It may not be your cup of tea - and that's totally fine, but to stick with the art example, can you discount Duchamp for his role in the art world even though you think the Fountain is just a piss-bowl?

[/quote]

Hehe, I like some Duchamp actually. The Dada movement was quite an interesting one and with those such as Man Ray... ah, so lovely... too bad the MoMA Dada exhibit was sooooo poorly curated it just made everything look like junk.

I see where you are coming from Faust. It may have come across as too extreme to dismiss these guys. I certainly don't consider them junk at all (I'm slowly coming around to Yohji as well :) ). I still do love the creative aspect that makes fashion fashion. I always look forward to the haute couture shows as the designers do not have to worry or care about the utilitarian aspect of clothing. The only limitation to their imagination is that it has to fit on a human form and be dragged down the runway somehow.

Finding new things has always been quasi serendipitous for me. When Dior tanked, I was left with nothing to really guide me. That's when I read forums moreso, looked around at stores and overall just handled the clothes. I was intrigued by certain designers and that made me read more about them. The more I read, the more interesting everything became! Two years ago I didn't know a damn thing about CCP, Carpe and all of them! I certainly knew Margiela, CdG and the others but there just wasn't this attraction. I can definitely appreciate/understand their role as major players in the fashion world and recognize that they are holding true to what they do and not diluting/whoring themselves out as much as say.... Prada or Dolce & Gabbana. Any more than that, and I just don't know them, what they really stand for/doand what their mark on the fashion world is. Granted, CCP and Continues are extremely niche. They don't have all-encompassing roles or fashion-world-wide influence, but they are consistent and innovative.

To give MMM, Junya and the others the credit and title of being "key designers", I need to know what they did to really change fashion or make it what it is today. Is there a silhouette they developed? A cut? There is the distinct Raf silhouette as well as the Dior one... to me MMM and Junya and those guys just do a bit above average. It's nice for sure, but when I'm looking to buy something and it's not gonna be cheap, I would prefer something almost groundbreaking you know? It's very (very very) possible that I just don't know enough history about said designers, but even if they invented the idea of pants, it wouldn't make me wear their clothes, but I would at least know their major contribution to fashion design.

In my breakdancing it's the same way. I know that certain guys innovated (and those guys i can respect) but then there are also guys that us new school breakers are supposed to respect just because they've "been around". I don't know what they contributed, but just because they're known I'm supposed to give them props.... and I don't like that idea at all.

May be a bit of an inaccurate comparison as it only covers part of the argument, but I hope my idea comes across [:)]

[Faust]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

/\ No, I understand. Lack of information can definitely impair one's judgement, and if you come and look at Margiela's stuff today, especially menswear, it's not much to get excited about if you looking for something very special (I'm with you here, I don't have a lot of money to spend, and it better be damn special when I do, otherwise it better be a damn bargain... preferably both :-)). One would need to go back 20 years, to read up on the Antwerp Six, and then on how Margiela started out and the completely new ideas he brought to fashion. I wouldn't be surprised if he influenced Altieri as well - after all it was Margiela who instituted the artisanal approach (meaning championing the work process itself, the technical skills, the handwork - making these things the primary aspects of a garment, by inverting the seams outward for display, for example, or by reworking already existing garments).

[Johnny]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



I agree with this.Absolutely it's sometimes difficult to undertand why people go on about someoneif their current work is less than inspiring. In relation to seams on the outside of garments for example, my understanding had been that that was originally a CDG idea. Rei was apparently inspired by the Centre Pomidou in Paris, with it's "inside out" construction. Her thinking was that the way that a garment is constructedshould not be hidden away and was as valid as the normal outward surface - thus she had the idea of showing not only seams (now many "reversible" clothes do we see now?), but liningsand exposed construction (CCP?.....). If you look at the CDG HP collection from summer 1999, almost all of the detail was on the inside (big frilly linings instrong colours). This is the collection they are currently "re-doing" in the SS 07 Evergreen range, where the frill shave been replaced with metal studs and chains etc. Even the current Gold collection, of which I'm not a great fan, can be looked at in some interesting way. Again it's been done by her before - in the early 90s she did a collection of almost all red clothes for men - the "Red is the New Black" idea. It seems to me to be a form of abstraction - to subvert the usual in a very objective way - here is a collection, but all in gold or all in red. This concept utterly defines the clothes - some jackets may be cut different from others, but they're all unrelentingly gold. She really commits to the concept.

Now you might not like any of these ideas, but the are all ideas, concepts, which to my mind means that they are worthy of consideration and of our interest.It's not at all about how they make onelook - because you, as I in fact do more and more, may think that it makes you look crap or silly or whatever - but you can understand and appreciate that they've thought about it, and the result is that itmakes you think.And that can only be a good thing. So I think this is why you can look at clothes that you don't find personally appealing, but have an interest in or understanding of them.

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Beautifully enlightening!

Faust, yes you're right. It may be a situation where their original, groundbreaking work was done and thus more or less lost to those who only learned of these guys in the last few years.

Johnny, thanks for that information. It's quite interesting!

In this sense, I can see why these people were innovators.

[Casius]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

Don't mean to interupt the great conversation but just wanted to post this picture of the Spring '07 footwear.

(I really want those shoes in the upper left corner)

[explicit]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



^^^
i'm in the same boat. i hope A has my size. i'm really looking forward to the oxfords.

[Chinorlz]

Re: Carol Christian Poell



Mmmm they look awesome! Any ideas of the price points for the oxfords? Same as the boots or a couple/few hundred less?

I know that in the US the boots went up in price... $1650 I think is the new price at Atelier. Partially due to the new hardware attaching the boots together hehehe. Ah, Carol....

[explicit]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

the oxfords, if i remember correctly, were around $1300.

[kucejoe]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

[ionn26]

Re: Carol Christian Poell

Very nice boots... is this from this season? Where is the metal bar behind the shoes.