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  • beyondthemeans
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 479

    Originally posted by Olex View Post
    Actually, I've check with my friends in Moldova and they said that this production site was bought by Rick Owens corporation and managed by Italians. Due to fact that the labor cost is much lower and the quality is quite good, it makes a big sense. Besides, they usually send to Moldova the patterns from Italy and Moldavian site just makes the final products. Probably it depends on orders quantities that they have. So Moldova is like a back up site...
    This is something that has been going on for quite a while among Italian suppliers. I only found out recently about this when a leather supplier explained to me that the sampling of many Italian produced leather items are done in Italy, but for production send away to Moldavia where they can achieve the same workmanship, for a much lower price. Worst thing is that they can still use the 'Made in Italy' label, when done this way, hence I had no idea before either.

    Comment

    • nyarkies
      Member
      • Feb 2012
      • 69

      But didn't Italy pass a law a few years ago that companies cannot claim items to be "made in Italy" unless the whole production was done in Italy? If any part of the production is completed outside of Italy, it has to be noted on the tag hence the RO tags say the materials are from Italy and finished in Moldova.

      Comment

      • beyondthemeans
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 479

        Originally posted by nyarkies View Post
        But didn't Italy pass a law a few years ago that companies cannot claim items to be "made in Italy" unless the whole production was done in Italy? If any part of the production is completed outside of Italy, it has to be noted on the tag hence the RO tags say the materials are from Italy and finished in Moldova.
        Ah I did not know that. Very odd that this supplier that told me about the outsourcing of production still uses the 'Made in Italy label'.

        From wikipedia:
        Regulation

        In 2009, the Italian law (Law 135, September 25th, 2009 - Chamber of Deputies, Parliament of Italy) stated that only products totally made in Italy (planning, manufacturing and packaging) are allowed to use the labels Made in Italy, 100% Made in Italy, 100% Italia, tutto italiano in every language, with or without the flag of Italy. Each abuse is punished by the Italian law.[6]

        Compared with "Made in Germany" ('all essential manufacturing steps') and "Made in the USA" ('all or virtually all'), Italian regulation is more restrictive ('totally') in determining what qualifies for the use of the "Made in Italy" label.

        Comment

        • Erich Fromm
          Member
          • May 2017
          • 85

          Although the products need to be made entirely in Italy that is not necessarily a testimony to their quality or ethical production. Im not insinuating that RO uses unethical production because I just don't know and can't imagine he does, but in general it is very possible to produce something in very debatable environments paying less than minimum wage. A good expample for this is 'Las Vegas' in Naples, where the Camorra, the local Mob, forces people, often Chinese immigrants, to work in sweat-shop conditions.

          Comment

          • beyondthemeans
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 479

            Originally posted by Erich Fromm View Post
            Although the products need to be made entirely in Italy that is not necessarily a testimony to their quality or ethical production. Im not insinuating that RO uses unethical production because I just don't know and can't imagine he does, but in general it is very possible to produce something in very debatable environments paying less than minimum wage. A good expample for this is 'Las Vegas' in Naples, where the Camorra, the local Mob, forces people, often Chinese immigrants, to work in sweat-shop conditions.
            I think it's very much of an 'old world' thing where people associate 'Made in Italy' with a certain level of quality, which, in the eyes of most buyers still ads some sort of value to the product.

            Comment

            • Geoffrey B. Small
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2007
              • 618

              Italy: there is a reason for the association.

              Originally posted by Erich Fromm View Post

              Although the products need to be made entirely in Italy that is not necessarily a testimony to their quality or ethical production. Im not insinuating that RO uses unethical production because I just don't know and can't imagine he does, but in general it is very possible to produce something in very debatable environments paying less than minimum wage. A good expample for this is 'Las Vegas' in Naples, where the Camorra, the local Mob, forces people, often Chinese immigrants, to work in sweat-shop conditions.
              Originally posted by beyondthemeans View Post
              I think it's very much of an 'old world' thing where people associate 'Made in Italy' with a certain level of quality, which, in the eyes of most buyers still ads some sort of value to the product.
              Excuse me, the best textile, apparel and footwear product in the world is still being made exclusively in Italy, period.

              There is a reason for the association.

              Let's stop trying to fool ourselves. The fact that scumbag companies... whether they are using illegal sweatshops in Naples or black market slave factories in Transnistria, Bangladesh, Cambodia or Vietnam and then using the made in italy label to get away with charging their exaggeratingly higher prices is only testament to the immense reputation that has been built by the real people who made and can still make the best in the world in this incredibly talented, inspiring and artistic country- inspite of all of its problems. Where do you think all the top french luxury houses including Chanel, Hermes and 90 percent of LVMH's brand production are making their clothes and shoes these days? France? Not by a long shot. They are all making their stuff in Italy. In the north, where we are. All over the Veneto region. Their factories are my neighbors. Where do you think Maurizio is making his shoes? In fucking Moldava or Portugal? Jesus Christ, the readership on SZ is getting more and more soft-headed on what artisanal reality is anymore. Too much bullshit media influence on internet, streetwear spinning and consumerism, and not enough on what it takes to really design and really make things of true beauty. More and more are falling for the fakers and the bad shit. Sure, there may be 'Las Vegas' in Naples, but you know what? There is also Kiton Spa which employs over 400 of Italy's best clothesmakers, and a shitload of really great, great tailoring houses and people still slugging it out in that city-- who will put just about anybody on the planet off the table when it comes to crafting some beautiful clothes. And if you think it's easy and inexpensive to run a firm in this country that makes the best of its kind in the world like a Ferrari, or a GBS, you are clueless. No country in the world is as difficult to manage a company that operates above board and legally as Italy. Taxes, bureaucracy, socialism, regulations, living and operating costs are all high and so are the risks to the entrepreneur. So why do it? Because when you commit to being the best in the world at what you do, and believe that continuously achieving that requires the best artistic and artisanal human beings being able to work together sustainably to make it happen, it works. Italy is an island in a sea US corporate created consumer globalized industrial produced crap. It is the last bastion of hope for anyone who wants to make real products and it too is under massive attack from the corporate priests of the Church of Milton Friedman. Does it cost more? Sure it does. You get what you pay for. And that is the real problem. We live in a world where a ruling class is in the process of eliminating the middle class. And as the middle class increasingly loses its spending power as a result, the ruling class uses its powerful media to insert the idea that you can get something for nothing, something for less, into the minds of the targeted middle class. But it is a trick. It is a lie. More insidious is the increasing intent of the ruling class to strip the middle class of any ability to sustain itself without being dependent upon the ruling class from growing food to making clothing to cultivating energy to creating job employment. Without skills or knowledge, the mass majority of the population is rendered totally dependent upon the whims of a ruling class that hopes to eliminate them, probably with a very very big war, and replace them with machines, automation, artificial intel, and cheaper poorer ever more desperate human slaves. This is the future being planned, it is known - just ask anybody who has been paying attention.

              So, I will leave you with 2 thoughts: 1) which alternative is really more expensive in the long run for all of us? I would argue better to pay for a real sustainable human being to do the job for you now, than opt for the fake cheap alternative that finances the growing cancer that will devour you in the future far sooner than you think. 2.) the reason the real product costs more is that there is an enormous shortage in skilled human beings that are available at this moment to do the work. The few great masters that are left like our own GBS strategic partners (Fratelli Piacenza 1733 Spa, Luigi Parisotto, Tessitura La Colombina, Cinzia and Claudio Fontana) are virtually all in Italy, that's why I moved here almost 2 decades ago. But if the skills and tech were passed on and taught to a larger and wider new generation of great human beings, scale and availability would increase--and most importantly, costs would go down as availability and competence become more and more localized at the global level. For those out there who know us and our work, you know that we are working hard on that direction. The "school" is being launched. And the future is exciting. But it requires a real total commitment and belief in the value of the human being, no matter where they might be in the world, and an unwavering drive to invest in others instead of just investing in yourself. Unfortunately, this thinking is not the trend among most designers or company managers these days, nevertheless we continue to encourage them to reconsider. In the long run, we believe their performance and survival of their companies will reflect their mistake.

              And we will continue the fight to keep the "Made in Italy" label as a true symbol for being able to make the best of what we do in the world. Again, I urge everyone at RO to join us in this mission, and bring back all production into Italy once more.

              Comment

              • Erich Fromm
                Member
                • May 2017
                • 85

                Thanks for your response Geoffrey! While I do agree that Italy still has some of the best craftsmanship in the world and brands like Kiton and Loro Piana produce some of the finest textiles on the whole market, the label "Made in Italy" has become a symbol that is exploited by exactly those scumbag companies you mentioned. My point is that while Italy certainly still produces some of the best product on the market, the label itself has sadly been stripped of it's value. Of course the effort you and others put into giving this tag its significance back and the ethical implications you bring to the job are amazing!

                Comment

                • Geoffrey B. Small
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 618

                  corrections about Kiton and Loro Piana

                  Originally posted by Erich Fromm View Post
                  Thanks for your response Geoffrey! While I do agree that Italy still has some of the best craftsmanship in the world and brands like Kiton and Loro Piana produce some of the finest textiles on the whole market, the label "Made in Italy" has become a symbol that is exploited by exactly those scumbag companies you mentioned. My point is that while Italy certainly still produces some of the best product on the market, the label itself has sadly been stripped of it's value. Of course the effort you and others put into giving this tag its significance back and the ethical implications you bring to the job are amazing!

                  Thanks Erich, I know you are early in your career and study of the metier, and I appreciate and encourage your continuous participation, study and development. Keep it up. In that spirit, please note that neither Kiton nor Loro Piana make textiles. Also, you really should not include Loro Piana in the class of the best of Italy for textiles. They were bought out for 2 billion euro by LVMH since several years ago, and all of their top people left within months of the takeover once they saw what the Arnault family was up to after the acquisition from the 2 brothers who founded the firm. The brothers sold the firm for family interests because one of them was dying and the buy-out craze in the luxury market was at a peak time. And like Kiton, they never made textiles at all. The history of Loro Piana began in the 1950's as textile brokers, buyers and sellers, not weavers--and never changed. The branding of fabric eventually expanded to the branding of clothing with the label, but never produced in-house a single product. Please note the difference, they are subcontracting-strategy based. While they were very adept at marketing, selecting and selling a name in luxury, they never made anything themselves. If you want to discuss cashmere, vicuna, camelhair, or any number of ultrafine micron wool cloths from super 150's to super 210's... then the real textile maker at the top and the real weaver and creator of this type of fabric is Fratelli Piacenza, a GBS key strategic partner, and the oldest and longest running wool mill still operating in the world today. In its 6th generation, the Piacenza family still really makes fabric and their product is light years beyond LP which in the hands of LVMH, is on its way even further down. It is after all, now only one of over sixty different brands that the conglomerate controls and operates. Kiton on the other hand has a magnificent clothes making operation outside of Napoli involving over 400 employees, but the fabric they put their name on is not made by them. They purchased the very good Carlo Barbera mill in Biella in 2010 for about 5 million us dollars and now take 100% of its production for their clothes production. They are also very big clients of Fratelli Piacenza's fabric too. But again, they do not make any fabric in their own operation. I believe you are serious in your study of the game, so I hope you understand that it is important to get the information correct about who the real "Made in Italy" players are. Meantime, as this thread is dedicated to RO, I think my point has been made and would like to cease the discussion or move it somewhere else.

                  Comment

                  • Erich Fromm
                    Member
                    • May 2017
                    • 85

                    Originally posted by Geoffrey B. Small View Post
                    Thanks Erich, I know you are early in your career and study of the metier, and I appreciate and encourage your continuous participation, study and development. Keep it up. In that spirit, please note that neither Kiton nor Loro Piana make textiles. Also, you really should not include Loro Piana in the class of the best of Italy for textiles. They were bought out for 2 billion euro by LVMH since several years ago, and all of their top people left within months of the takeover once they saw what the Arnault family was up to after the acquisition from the 2 brothers who founded the firm. The brothers sold the firm for family interests because one of them was dying and the buy-out craze in the luxury market was at a peak time. And like Kiton, they never made textiles at all. The history of Loro Piana began in the 1950's as textile brokers, buyers and sellers, not weavers--and never changed. The branding of fabric eventually expanded to the branding of clothing with the label, but never produced in-house a single product. Please note the difference, they are subcontracting-strategy based. While they were very adept at marketing, selecting and selling a name in luxury, they never made anything themselves. If you want to discuss cashmere, vicuna, camelhair, or any number of ultrafine micron wool cloths from super 150's to super 210's... then the real textile maker at the top and the real weaver and creator of this type of fabric is Fratelli Piacenza, a GBS key strategic partner, and the oldest and longest running wool mill still operating in the world today. In its 6th generation, the Piacenza family still really makes fabric and their product is light years beyond LP which in the hands of LVMH, is on its way even further down. It is after all, now only one of over sixty different brands that the conglomerate controls and operates. Kiton on the other hand has a magnificent clothes making operation outside of Napoli involving over 400 employees, but the fabric they put their name on is not made by them. They purchased the very good Carlo Barbera mill in Biella in 2010 for about 5 million us dollars and now take 100% of its production for their clothes production. They are also very big clients of Fratelli Piacenza's fabric too. But again, they do not make any fabric in their own operation. I believe you are serious in your study of the game, so I hope you understand that it is important to get the information correct about who the real "Made in Italy" players are. Meantime, as this thread is dedicated to RO, I think my point has been made and would like to cease the discussion or move it somewhere else.
                    Thanks so much for the insight! I'll definitely look into Piacenza and Barbera!

                    Comment

                    • stemcell
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 261

                      Unrelated to above.

                      "A Candid Chat with Rick Owens on the Eve of His CFDA Lifetime Achievement Award"

                      Comment

                      • stemcell
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2011
                        • 261

                        2017 CFDA FASHION AWARDS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD


                        Comment

                        • mrbeuys
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2008
                          • 2313

                          Hm, not sure about that film but this is a beautiful affair. Hun and uncle Rick on stage

                          Hi. I like your necklace. - It's actually a rape whistle, but the whistle part fell off.

                          Comment

                          • stemcell
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2011
                            • 261

                            Yes I don't really understand the short film. It's the first time I've seen a rick related short film that I just don't really get what they are doing or perhaps referencing. Was hoping some people here would have some thoughts. I guess things don't always need an explanation, or maybe they do.

                            Comment

                            • stemcell
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 261

                              They are so precious gahhhhh

                              Comment

                              • Faust
                                kitsch killer
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 37852

                                Originally posted by mrbeuys View Post
                                Hm, not sure about that film but this is a beautiful affair. Hun and uncle Rick on stage

                                "One of life's fundamental needs is to be listened to. Thank you for allowing me to feel heard." I mean, can you love him any more?
                                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                                Comment

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