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  • laika
    moderator
    • Sep 2006
    • 3787

    Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
    1) And to me, I'm not outside society.
    2) I'm saying that some pieces significations are so strong that they occupy center stage and evacuate any sort of other considerations one might have about it. I got this great swastika-covered coat, the shape is amazing...
    I think equating wearing a skirt with sporting a swastika is rather simplistic. They are not the same order of sign and they operate differently as signifiers.

    There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/UK of men wearing skirts. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular skirt, both because of the simple wrap style (sarong) and the pin closure (kilt). I imagine that's why Cas picked that one, even if he did so unconsciously.
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

    Comment

    • Fuuma
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2006
      • 4050

      Originally posted by laika View Post
      I think equating wearing a skirt with sporting a swastika is rather simplistic. They are not the same order of sign and they operate differently as signifiers.
      There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/US of decorative items and garments sporting swastikas. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular coat. I imagine that's why I picked that one, even if I did so unconsciously.
      Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
      http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

      Comment

      • laika
        moderator
        • Sep 2006
        • 3787

        Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
        There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/US of decorative items and garments sporting swastikas. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular coat. I imagine that's why I picked that one, even if I did so unconsciously.
        That doesn't make sense [to me].

        edit: or perhaps i should say, it completely side steps the distinction i was making.
        ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

        Comment

        • Fuuma
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2006
          • 4050

          Originally posted by laika View Post
          That doesn't make sense [to me].
          Ok, the swastika is a bscis symbol that has been in use by many aboriginal and ancient civilisations and was used on many motifs before WWII, I'm just saying that for most, this is background story they might or might not know but a newer meaning has replaced the old one and is almost universally accepted.
          Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
          http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

          Comment

          • laika
            moderator
            • Sep 2006
            • 3787

            Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
            Ok, the swastika is a bscis symbol that has been in use by many aboriginal and ancient civilisations and was used on many motifs before WWII, I'm just saying that for most, this is background story they might or might not know but a newer meaning has replaced the old one and is almost universally accepted.
            What you say is certainly true of the swastika. I guess I disagree with you about the skirt having such a universally fixed and overwhelming meaning, even in the West. But more importantly, i think it's far easier--and less risky-- to subvert the meaning of the skirt than that of the swastika. I think this has to do with types of signs they are, which is what i was getting at before. But this goes into a level of semiotics that is probably tangential to this discussion...
            ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

            Comment

            • Fuuma
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 4050

              Even if others may not watch you, you do watch yourself. Unless you erase your own culture/identity you'll never escape significations.
              Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
              http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

              Comment

              • Fuuma
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2006
                • 4050

                Originally posted by laika View Post
                What you say is certainly true of the swastika. I guess I disagree with you about the skirt having such a universally fixed and overwhelming meaning, even in the West. But more importantly, i think it's far easier--and less risky-- to subvert the meaning of the skirt than that of the swastika. I think this has to do with types of signs they are, which is what i was getting at before. But this goes into a level of semiotics that is probably tangential to this discussion...
                Sure, it's not on the same level of transgressions but it is very high. Especially compared to say, what I did today and wearing a lavender scarf which some may see as feminine.
                Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                Comment

                • BECOMING-INTENSE
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 1868

                  Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
                  Hmm, you're being intentionally cryptic which doesn't bring much to the table. This was painted in the 30s (if I'm right) as he started with those, you can see a body twisting on himself, a savage take on biology and a rebellion against fate which can be contrasted to the dark, dressed up figures and bowing figures. I'm sure I could decide for you what you meant to say using these elements (30=Nazism, the tormented flesh, the dressed up figure, the title) but how about you give us the pleasure of doing it yourself.
                  No, it was made in 1965, and the red swastika armband was intended
                  as a formal device/compositional element.

                  So not that cryptical, surely not intentional, just striped away from
                  words, which might divert away from the sensing body, that can
                  dramatize the cuts of meat or the movement of flesh in the painting.
                  Are you afraid of women, Doctor?
                  Of course.

                  www.becomingmads.com

                  Comment

                  • DHC
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2007
                    • 2155

                    Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
                    Sure, it's not on the same level of transgressions but it is very high. Especially compared to say, what I did today and wearing a lavender scarf which some may see as feminine.
                    What transgression with the skirt aside from going beyond one's egocentricity? Granted the swastika is an ancient symbol, but it has since been tainted. It is too closely associated with genocide and awakens memories of some of mankind's darkest moments. It reopens wounds and evokes pain. I think wearing the symbol is irresponsible. Can't say the same is true of a skirt.

                    Your lavender scarf is the shit by the way. I actually considered picking one up, but couldn't pull it off like you can.
                    Last edited by DHC; 02-23-2009, 05:35 PM.
                    Originally posted by Faust
                    fuck you, i don't have an attitude problem.

                    Sartorialoft

                    "She is very ninja, no?" ~Peter Jevnikar

                    Comment

                    • BECOMING-INTENSE
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 1868

                      Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
                      Even if others may not watch you, you do watch yourself. Unless you erase your own culture/identity you'll never escape significations.
                      There's no attempt here to break with language or signification.
                      Destratification or becoming takes place 'outside' language, as
                      the outside that coexists with signification and is modified
                      through signification. This 'outside' is the unconscious, composed
                      of intensities, codes, territories, and becomings.
                      Are you afraid of women, Doctor?
                      Of course.

                      www.becomingmads.com

                      Comment

                      • Fuuma
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 4050

                        Originally posted by BECOMING-INTENSE View Post
                        There's no attempt here to break with language or signification.
                        Destratification or becoming takes place 'outside' language, as
                        the outside that coexists with signification and is modified
                        through signification. This 'outside' is the unconscious, composed
                        of intensities, codes, territories, and becomings.
                        The unconscious IS a language, don't make Lacan wake up from the dead and spank you.
                        Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                        http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                        Comment

                        • Fuuma
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 4050

                          Originally posted by DHC View Post
                          What transgression with the skirt aside from going beyond one's egocentricity. Granted the swastika is an ancient symbol, but it has since been tainted. It is too closely associated with genocide and awakens memories of some of mankind's darkest moments. It reopens wounds and evokes pain. I think wearing the symbol is irresponsible. Can't say the same is true of a skirt.

                          Your lavender scarf is the shit by the way. I actually considered picking one up, but couldn't pull it off like you can.
                          I'm not assigning good or evil characteristics to transgressions, they're merely a breaking of norms.
                          Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                          http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                          Comment

                          • laika
                            moderator
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 3787

                            Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
                            The unconscious IS a language, don't make Lacan wake up from the dead and spank you.
                            Don't wake up Lacan, please, i am enjoying all these beautiful posts!

                            where is deleuze, btw?
                            ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                            Comment

                            • Fuuma
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 4050

                              Originally posted by BECOMING-INTENSE View Post
                              No, it was made in 1965, and the red swastika armband was intended
                              as a formal device/compositional element.

                              So not that cryptical, surely not intentional, just striped away from
                              words, which might divert away from the sensing body, that can
                              dramatize the cuts of meat or the movement of flesh in the painting.
                              Oh, not a big Bacon fan but I thought his crucifixion pieces were from the 30s and the whole thing was later internalized but left unsaid. Guess I was wrong.
                              Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                              http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                              Comment

                              • Fuuma
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 4050

                                Originally posted by laika View Post
                                Don't wake up Lacan, please, i am enjoying all these beautiful posts!

                                where is deleuze, btw?
                                I dunno, I barely understand what BI tries to say as he seems to be trying to communicate outside "language" and I'm a westerner, no can do that. Civilization of the commentary FTW!

                                Anyway I don't see how his last comment could be read as anything but denial, language isn't just your mother tongue, it is the structure of discourse.
                                Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                                http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                                Comment

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