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Thread: Label Under Construction (Luca Laurini)

  1. #601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casius View Post
    I want that second one....
    Big, blonde surfer in a skirt, no. Stick to hakamas or whatever, they'll think you found Buddhism in your hippie commune. Too childish-subversive for me.
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  2. #602

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    Quote Originally Posted by merz View Post
    indeed, worlds apart from bespoke shoes.
    Please expand, not sure I get you. A man wearing a skirt just went to play into the adjoining sandbox, with all the signifiers associated to that. A guy wearing bespoke shoes wears nice shoes (if he chose right). One is pretty hardline and must be well thought out, the other one is somewhat easier.
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
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  3. #603

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    Quote Originally Posted by merz View Post
    the significance is your apparent concern, first and foremost, with how something is interpreted by popular consensus or specific parties, occasionally to a point where i can't help but wonder if you're as interested in the garments themselves as what they entail and how they are received within certain audiences. shoes being an example, call me silly but you sometimes appear to be more fascinated with some kind of a secret handshake element to that whole thing.

    the first thing you said was that they'll disapprove, whoever they are.
    why should that part ever be a guiding principle if you think something looks cool.
    Pure aesthetic displays are an illusion because I am in the world and interact with it. You can't say I'm not passionate about garments but I never forget what they mean. Extreme displays are a big "fuck you", there's a lawyer I knew off who is build like a quarterback and dresses like a lady, this takes center stage over the shape of his skirt no matter who he meets. You can't say I don't like playing with garments but I never forget what they mean, provocation is not lightly done for me but a well thought out process.

    Might I add that you're talking to someone especially interested in aesthetics (in the philosophical sense) so imagine what it is when it's about other people.
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  4. #604
    Senior Member Casius's Avatar
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    I get shit for Poell shoes and drop crotch pants so a skirt isn't going to be that big of a leap. Anyone around here who doesn't wear skate/surfwear is looked at weird so it's no big deal to me.

    (wait, isn't there a thread on this?)

    Like Merz said though; If I (or anyone else) dressed to social standards (especially here in the US), I wouldn't be wearing half the pieces in my wardrobe. I definitely don't wear the things I do to please the people in my surroundings and nor do I want to start.

  5. #605

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    Fuuma, if your interested in aesthetics(in a philosophical sense)
    don't forget your body!

    I look only at the movements

    -Kierkegaard

    A sensation that acts directly on the body, without needing
    to be processed by the significations available in the mind.

    By the way, Mike it seems like I need your help!
    Are you afraid of women, Doctor?
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  6. #606

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    Fuuma, I don't think anyone here would deny that clothing signifies/means something to other people. But you do seem to place an undue amount of emphasis on that particular level of signification--or particular type of interpretant, as CSP would have it. There are other levels of signification to take into account, like that between garments and the body, as B-I is suggesting...
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  7. #607

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    Quote Originally Posted by laika View Post
    Fuuma, I don't think anyone here would deny that clothing signifies/means something to other people. But you do seem to place an undue amount of emphasis on that particular level of signification--or particular type of interpretant, as CSP would have it. There are other levels of signification to take into account, like that between garments and the body, as B-I is suggesting...
    1) And to me, I'm not outside society.
    2) I'm saying that some pieces significations are so strong that they occupy center stage and evacuate any sort of other considerations one might have about it. I got this great swastika-covered coat, the shape is amazing...
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
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  8. #608

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    Fuuma, whereas we are all presumably within society, it might make more sense to say that society is within us, in that it guides many of our choices. If you are suggesting that it takes some extra effort to occupy an in-between place, I would agree. Maybe some of us are more sensitive in this area – I know I am. Pushing the envelope of my self expression while not over-doing it to the extent of feeling blatantly out of place is a constant balancing act for me -- one which I enjoy nonetheless. I relish the resulting tension and attention alike.

  9. #609

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    I'm surprised at the turn things have taken here. Great discourse, but personal views are just that and I don't see anyone winning anyone over here (nor should they..own your beliefs). The reason I'm surprised is that the pieces are presented as skirts, but are more than skirts. I guess I expect SZers to see the versatility of a piece at this point. I'd love to own a couple of those as well Cas. Luca's a genius. That's all for now.
    Last edited by DHC; 02-23-2009 at 04:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    fuck you, i don't have an attitude problem.

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  10. #610

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    Quote Originally Posted by merz View Post
    if we are to suggest that society at large is some all-encompassing other, it may very well be that it views the whole damn lot of us within that 'UGLIEST most OUT OF NIGHTMARE BULLSHIT' mindset spotted over at Kanye's university. Except for fuuma - i'm sure his bespoke shoes tell a certain someone that indeed, he is of a certain social class to make the grade.

    do the symbols matter anywhere near as much as their significance in the right eyes?
    Don’t worry my whole being screams bourgeois intellectual to those with the appropriate taste level to decipher such messages. I am welcomed by peers with the warm embrace of a love colder than death. Yes I even referenced Fassbinder in there because that’s how we roll.

    The paragraph above may be a joke but it remains that, although clothing is often seen here as serving the purpose of self-expression, it also concerns distinction (from the mass) and belonging (to a certain group).

    As for signs, I make no claim in having control over them once they’re released, communication being as much about the static as the message. Not that it matters as do we even know ourselves enough to really understand what we’re trying to project and why?

    It still remains that as fragmented as opinions, perceptions and values can be, some garments are almost universally (as much as the western world can be universal and, believe me, it is trying) recognized as being associated with a specific something. Skirts with feminity, Swastikas with Nazism, etc. When Gaultier presented skirts he wasn’t just taking an aesthetic stance but being “Gaultier the punk” and raising his middle finger to settled gender roles and their trappings. I remember the gesture but can I visualize the model beyond a faint approximation?
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

  11. #611

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHC View Post
    I'm surprised at the turn things have taken here. Great discourse, but personal views are just that and I don't see anyone winning anyone over here (nor should they..own your beliefs). The reason I'm surprised is that the pieces are presented as skirts, but are more than skirts. I guess I expect SZers to see the versatility of a piece at this point. I'd love to own a couple of those as well Cas. But I wouldn't be wearing them around my waist. Luca's a genius. That's all for now.
    The second one could probably be worn in other ways but the pleated ones are sorta harder to recontextualize, no? I dunno I haven't seen those pieces in person and I think the discussion moved beyond that. Still cool stuff, I like LUC.
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

  12. #612

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
    The second one could probably be worn in other ways but the pleated ones are sorta harder to recontextualize, no? I dunno I haven't seen those pieces in person and I think the discussion moved beyond that. Still cool stuff, I like LUC.
    Oh, did it? I didn't read beyond the last couple of posts between you and Merz. "Look! Ignorance!" is always cried out when not reading far enough back and posting anyways. I need to do some SZ catsup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    fuck you, i don't have an attitude problem.

    Sartorialoft

    "She is very ninja, no?" ~Peter Jevnikar

  13. #613

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
    It still remains that as fragmented as opinions, perceptions and values can be, some garments are almost universally (as much as the western world can be universal and, believe me, it is trying) recognized as being associated with a specific something. Skirts with feminity, Swastikas with Nazism, etc. When Gaultier presented skirts he wasn’t just taking an aesthetic stance but being “Gaultier the punk” and raising his middle finger to settled gender roles and their trappings. I remember the gesture but can I visualize the model beyond a faint approximation?

    Crucifixion(III Part, Right) Francis Bacon
    Are you afraid of women, Doctor?
    Of course.

    www.becomingmads.com

  14. #614
    Senior Member Casius's Avatar
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    DHC- You hit on the head. I can totally see that skirt working in multiple ways which is the reason I like it.
    Not the greatest of pictures but here it is...

  15. #615

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    Quote Originally Posted by BECOMING-INTENSE View Post

    Crucifixion(III Part, Right) Francis Bacon
    Hmm, you're being intentionally cryptic which doesn't bring much to the table. This was painted in the 30s (if I'm right) as he started with those, you can see a body twisting on himself, a savage take on biology and a rebellion against fate which can be contrasted to the dark, dressed up figures and bowing figures. I'm sure I could decide for you what you meant to say using these elements (30=Nazism, the tormented flesh, the dressed up figure, the title) but how about you give us the pleasure of doing it yourself.
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
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  16. #616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
    1) And to me, I'm not outside society.
    2) I'm saying that some pieces significations are so strong that they occupy center stage and evacuate any sort of other considerations one might have about it. I got this great swastika-covered coat, the shape is amazing...
    I think equating wearing a skirt with sporting a swastika is rather simplistic. They are not the same order of sign and they operate differently as signifiers.

    There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/UK of men wearing skirts. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular skirt, both because of the simple wrap style (sarong) and the pin closure (kilt). I imagine that's why Cas picked that one, even if he did so unconsciously.
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  17. #617

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    Quote Originally Posted by laika View Post
    I think equating wearing a skirt with sporting a swastika is rather simplistic. They are not the same order of sign and they operate differently as signifiers.
    There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/US of decorative items and garments sporting swastikas. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular coat. I imagine that's why I picked that one, even if I did so unconsciously.
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

  18. #618

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
    There are traditions, mostly in the non-western world, but also in certain parts of Europe/US of decorative items and garments sporting swastikas. I see a reference to those traditions in that particular coat. I imagine that's why I picked that one, even if I did so unconsciously.
    That doesn't make sense [to me].

    edit: or perhaps i should say, it completely side steps the distinction i was making.
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

  19. #619

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    Quote Originally Posted by laika View Post
    That doesn't make sense [to me].
    Ok, the swastika is a bscis symbol that has been in use by many aboriginal and ancient civilisations and was used on many motifs before WWII, I'm just saying that for most, this is background story they might or might not know but a newer meaning has replaced the old one and is almost universally accepted.
    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

  20. #620

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
    Ok, the swastika is a bscis symbol that has been in use by many aboriginal and ancient civilisations and was used on many motifs before WWII, I'm just saying that for most, this is background story they might or might not know but a newer meaning has replaced the old one and is almost universally accepted.
    What you say is certainly true of the swastika. I guess I disagree with you about the skirt having such a universally fixed and overwhelming meaning, even in the West. But more importantly, i think it's far easier--and less risky-- to subvert the meaning of the skirt than that of the swastika. I think this has to do with types of signs they are, which is what i was getting at before. But this goes into a level of semiotics that is probably tangential to this discussion...
    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

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