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  • laika
    moderator
    • Sep 2006
    • 3785

    #76
    Re: Your Style Philosophy



    wow....



    JB is having a bad day here.[:|] Disdained by Faust, in favor of Maureen Dowd's out-of-date platitudes, and then abandoned by becoming-intense, in favor of Irigaray's psycho-analytic convolutions. Let's give Judith a break already. [86] Faust, surely you can afford a sentence or two of elaboration, so your dismissal doesn't seem arbitrary...i'm far from a fan, but am genuinely curious. [51]





    [quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]




    One thing I do find problematic, is the distinction you create between art and design,
    "a sense of finality or completeness to the whole", because, as I've elaborated on somewhere else, there is a difference in kind between the materials that support a work of art, such as paint, canvas, film, stone, sound-waves, textiles etc. and the work itself. Art only attempts to fashion a material object, having a finite duration, so as to create being of sensation, which is preserved in itself for an eternity that coexists with the short duration of material. This bloc of sensations, standing up alone or positing itself, contains the working, sensation, and forces of the work. Even with the suggested finite materials that supports paintings, sculptures, etc., they can indeed become "a very real and dynamic sense of continuous potential and unfolding".



    [/quote]



    I anticipated you would catch me on this, which is why I used "work of Art," in the sense of institutionally-defined object, rather than art as practice or process. I agree with you that individual art objects can have this potential, but i think the categorization by institutions of art as "Art," undermines the extent to which works can actually be experienced in the way you are describing. There is something about design, imo, which resists this categorization, perhaps because of its intimacy with the body.



    But I am very OT. [:$]



    I do like that Judith quote a lot, by the way, although I fear you could repeat it endlessly and have it fall on deaf ears....[79]

    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37849

      #77
      Re: Your Style Philosophy

      I don't like hate despise convoluted writing, and she has been its biggest champion. I admit I haven't read much of her, but why would I? I can use Valium instead. Sokal > Butler. Have I ever shown you this, btw? Quite entertaining.
      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • laika
        moderator
        • Sep 2006
        • 3785

        #78
        Re: Your Style Philosophy



        yes, I am familiar with that. [75]



        I dunno, Faust. Sokal's hoax was clever enough, but I think he came out of it looking almost as silly as the people he attacked. Calling out the use of scientific concepts by philosophers makes for very funny reading, but it's not a very meaningful exercise, if you yourself don't bother to learn anything about philosophy. Besides, many of his statements are reductive, trite, and downright irresponsible, especially given their orientation towards students: "If the texts seem incomprehensible, it is for the excellent reason that they mean precisely nothing." [^o)] Just great. Way to encourage laziness and discourage humility--"don't worry if you don't get it, that just means it's meaningless crap." We certainly don't tolerate this kind of approach when it comes to critiquing fashion, so why should we subscribe to it in the realm of intellectual thought?



        I certainly don't enjoy reading Judith Butler, but I believe she's sincere in her struggle with language...I don't think she's convoluted just for the sake of it. People who think for a living are bound to have thoughts that are seemingly incomprehensible to those who don't. That doesn't mean that those thoughts are worthless or unimportant though.



        I'll stop short of defending psycho-analysis, as it's really not my cup of tea. [79]



        ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

        Comment

        • voltaire's anti-defamation league
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2007
          • 440

          #79
          Re: Your Style Philosophy



          i agree with johnny that looking sharp is kind of the governing force behind most of the duds i wear. its like music, the basic point is to sound good and all the math is secondary. but i don't really think it has a terribly lot to do with sex...obviously aesthetics play a role with who you get down with both , as faust mentioned, sexually and culturally but i would be seriously deluded if i thought there was a girl in the world who would not have sex with me cause my jeans were a 32 length instead of 34. but to me the difference is monumental. nor would i expect some dame to look at someone like Les and be like oh my god i want to suck the object dye off his ccp **** ....personally i think style is pretty expendable to anyone else but the person it belongs to. i would kind of expect my look to if anything probably be off-putting to anyone i would want to lay. i mean they would probably pretend to like it cause girls are generally sort of impressionable like this girl i was seeing a bit ago would always tell me i look 'fancy' and id be wearing a bunch of layered black ann d and thinking to myself thats funny i would expect you to think i look fucking homeless....basically i think looking sharp and looking attractive are a lot different but can obviously over-lap. like the old creepy rick owens boy i think that he's the slickest dude on earth but if i showed a picture of him to any girl in one of my classes theyd be like ewwww (which is mean cause i sortah look like him ahah.)



          in terms of what i think looks sharp i like a minimalist sortah just plain black 'retail' look. like ud see on the A site, rick owens tank, black jeans, boots. booyah. and then mix that with a bit of the ann kinda brooding goth poet boy runway aesthtic which is a little more romantic and in your face and layered to hell.



          in terms of designer ideology ive always been partial to ann. even when i dont really like the clothes there's so much soul to what she does i cant help but love it. plus she seems so rad i kinda just want to live in Antwerp and hang out with her and her husband and patti when she drops by.



          Comment

          • Servo2000
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 2183

            #80
            Re: Your Style Philosophy



            [quote user="voltaire's anti-defamation league"] ... nor would i expect some dame to look at someone like Les and be like oh my god i want to suck the object dye off his ccp ****. [/quote]



            I literally laughed aloud at this.

            WTB: Rick Owens Padded MA-1 Bomber XS (LIMO / MOUNTAIN)

            Comment

            • Faust
              kitsch killer
              • Sep 2006
              • 37849

              #81
              Re: Your Style Philosophy

              rock on [Y]
              Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

              StyleZeitgeist Magazine

              Comment

              • voltaire's anti-defamation league
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2007
                • 440

                #82
                Re: Your Style Philosophy

                and im not actually that knee jerk. its just cause other people were writing like poems and shit. take it with a grain of donkey leather.

                Comment

                • laika
                  moderator
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 3785

                  #83
                  Re: Your Style Philosophy



                  [quote user="voltaire's anti-defamation league"]and im not actually that knee jerk. its just cause other people were writing like poems and shit. take it with a grain of donkey leather.
                  [/quote]



                  you're a poet, and you didn't even know it...[:O]

                  ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                  Comment

                  • voltaire's anti-defamation league
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 440

                    #84
                    Re: Your Style Philosophy

                    a brooding goth poet boy. like that bitch rimbraud.

                    Comment

                    • Faust
                      kitsch killer
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 37849

                      #85
                      Re: Your Style Philosophy



                      [quote user="Faust"]rock on [Y]
                      [/quote]



                      oops, didn't see the rest of the thread - the comment was aimed at Laika's retort. I don't agree, but I appreciate. [75]

                      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                      Comment

                      • laika
                        moderator
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 3785

                        #86
                        Re: Your Style Philosophy

                        [quote user="Faust"]

                        I don't agree, but I appreciate. [75]



                        [/quote]



                        About Sokal or Butler? Or about the notion that someone might be capable of articulating an idea that is incomprehensible to you? [86]

                        ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                        Comment

                        • Faust
                          kitsch killer
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 37849

                          #87
                          Re: Your Style Philosophy

                          [quote user="laika"][quote user="Faust"]

                          I don't agree, but I appreciate. [75]



                          [/quote]



                          About Sokal or Butler? Or about the fact that someone might be capable of articulating an idea that is incomprehensible to you? [86]



                          [/quote]



                          Are you calling me stupid?



                          I was talking about the fact that you don't have to express your ideas in this convoluted, lofty, academic way, especially the way Butler and her ilk do. And she does it all the time - do you really believe she thinks that way? I don't think her thoughts are incomprehensible, her writing is. She complicates it on purpose - but it results not in intelligence, but in boredom. If she at least had something even closely resembling a style, it could be her saving grace. Oh, and that Sokal sentences you pointed out - is it really that far from what someone like her would write?

                          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                          Comment

                          • lll
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 150

                            #88
                            Re: Your Style Philosophy

                            [quote user="Servo2000"]

                            [quote user="voltaire's anti-defamation league"] ... nor would i expect some dame to look at someone like Les and be like oh my god i want to suck the object dye off his ccp ****. [/quote]



                            I literally laughed aloud at this.



                            [/quote]



                            i dearly hope this will happen [74][74]

                            Comment

                            • laika
                              moderator
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 3785

                              #89
                              Re: Your Style Philosophy

                              [quote user="Faust"]

                              Are you calling me stupid?



                              I was talking about the fact that you don't have to express your ideas in this convoluted, lofty, academic way, especially the way Butler and her ilk do. And she does it all the time - do you really believe she thinks that way? I don't think her thoughts are incomprehensible, her writing is. She complicates it on purpose - but it results not in intelligence, but in boredom. If she at least had something even closely resembling a style, it could be her saving grace. Oh, and that Sokal sentences you pointed out - is it really that far from what someone like her would write?



                              [/quote]



                              Not at all! What on earth gave you that idea!? [76] There are LOTS of ideas I don't comprehend, but I certainly don't dismiss them on that basis. I would have to believe i am some sort of genius, to claim that my understanding is the standard for what's good. And I was genuinely asking--in the name of precious clarity--what specifically you disagree with. If you think certain thinkers are charlatans who write in a purposely opaque way to disguise their lack of good ideas--fine. But there is a BIG difference between that and buying into the totalizing crap that is that Sokal statement. I believe in hard work and humility and I assumed that you do too. That's why I asked for clarification. I don't understand your last question at all, sorry. [:(]






                              ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                              Comment

                              • Faust
                                kitsch killer
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 37849

                                #90
                                Re: Your Style Philosophy

                                I am not setting myself up as a standard, but I also don't understand how you write off intentionally obscure language as merely a natural way of expressing someone's thoughts? I mean, that's what Sokal's hoax was all about. That's what George Orwell's and James Miller's essays are about. I am not the only one :-). And, yes, I am convinced that a lot of times such language is used to obscure theories that are pretty weak (see the penis/labia comment). I have full respect for intelligence - if I did not, I wouldn't be where I am in life. I am the last person to throw words like "elitist" and "ivory tower" around - but what they do often results in bullshit.
                                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                                Comment

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