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  • Faust
    kitsch killer
    • Sep 2006
    • 37852

    #16
    Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N



    /\ I think mostly people like poor artists, because a poor artist has a story to tell that will help the gallery owners sell his stuff - I don't think it's any indication of their talent. Imagine a guy say, "Here is a good painting done by a silver-spooner who has never felt a material need," - it maybe a great painting but the rich people who buy art will find it boring. They want a story - contemporary art for the most part is trash - they can't hold a candle to old masters in terms of skill and artistic difficulty - so you gotta replace that with something. You got a black square, anyone can do that - now you have to pad that with a concept, a story. And with the half-myth that all great art comes out from painful experience, you now need a poor suffering person to do it. I know Seventh is going to hate me, but read Robert Hughes, "Art and the Theraputic Fallacy," - it's all there.

    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      #17
      Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

      Just a disclaimer - I don't hate rich people (when they are good people) !!! [:D]
      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • JaridRose
        Member
        • Jan 2007
        • 50

        #18
        Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

        yeah i don't hate rich people either...."I have some rich friends".

        Comment

        • laika
          moderator
          • Sep 2006
          • 3787

          #19
          Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

          Fascinating posts, Jarid and Faust. You've touched on so many things,
          and I am hoping that Fuuma will come in here and give us the semiotic
          analysis--my brain hurts just thinking about it. Am also missing
          Seventh here, who I'm sure would have some very eloquent insights. [51]

          I
          was reading a trend forecast for F/W 07-08 and it mentioned, among
          other things, that "raw" and "handmade" are on the rise. How this will
          be manifested--on the runways and in the streets--is, i suspect, very
          different from the aesthetic you are classifying as arte povera. All
          things discussed in the CCP thread aside, I think it takes a pretty
          rarefied and eccentric taste to appreciate the likes of Continues, Paul
          Harnden, Poell, etc. Their designs are too understated, and their
          appeal too subtle, to fit with the mainstream's use of fashion. These
          days it's all about standing out, expressing your individuality, blah
          blah blah. Whereas CDiem is very austere, severe, almost
          uniform-like. I definitely see them as being part of the current
          motion of fashion, but I don't see their aesthetic being directly
          appropriated and capitalized on--I just don't think many people would
          buy it.


          What I see happening now, is that fashion, having run out of ways to be new (the
          new being that which fashion depends on), is in a kind of liminal
          stage--it's coming of age. If it were a person in a traditional
          society, it would withdraw from the world, go into the woods, and maybe
          get some excruciatingly painful tattoos. Since it's not, we get to
          witness a whole mishmash of emotions, aesthetics, strategies,
          struggles, etc. Typical adolescent stuff.

          So, on the fringes of fashion we have the "raw" and the
          "handmade." It's not new, but it's very, very old--the pre-industrial,
          the bricoleur. (Bricolage being similar to what Jarid is observing in
          the dress of the homeless.) And on the runways we have nostalgic
          interpretations of the future, like Balenciaga quoting the Space
          Age--it's neither new nor old, simply outmoded. Or Dries (who is
          amazingly sensitive to the fashion weather), combing techno-fabrics
          with handmade embellishments. What I would like to see in both of
          these (wistfully) is
          a gesture towards a truly futuristic fashion. (This being what
          Chalayan has struggled with from the very beginning, in a context that's just never
          ready). I think (hope) a real futurism will be the next big move.



          Sorry for what I am sure is a most esoteric ramble. [:$] I don't have much to say about the rich/poor thing--I think it's rather moot, when we are discussing a $1000 jacket. But it's very fascinating in terms of what we hope to communicate and express with our clothes. I just want to
          add, that I think it's very limiting to see these designers in terms of
          arte povera alone. They share certain qualities with that movement,
          surely. But there are traditional Japanese aesthetics, for
          example--imperfection, perishability-- that can also (or instead) be
          discerned here.
          ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

          Comment

          • unmetro
            Member
            • Sep 2006
            • 93

            #20
            Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

            [quote user="Faust"]


            I've always wondered why these trust fund baby hipsters always try to look poor, as if they are ashamed of something.




            [/quote]


            maybe its the misanthrope in me, but I always thought the answer was simpler than that. I don't give people that much credit...I think less real thought was put into it...and they just want to either try to keep it "real" (deluded), be exclusive (aka special and unique, which may in turn be inferred as "better than you") or just want to emulate a certain "look" (which is the counterpointto exclusive, i.e. "jumping on the bandwagon" or find association and "fit in")....with not much genuinepurpose behind it...kinda harsh view i know, and I admit I'm no saint to all this either...I've disappointingly fallen to such mindless acts myself....


            oh,and while we're at it...i come from an middle class family and justhate everyone...hehe ;-p

            Comment

            • unmetro
              Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 93

              #21
              Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

              hmm...interesting what discussion a single blazer brings about....tat to me is fashion...hehe

              Comment

              • Faust
                kitsch killer
                • Sep 2006
                • 37852

                #22
                Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N



                [quote user="laika"]Fascinating posts, Jarid and Faust. You've touched on so many things,
                and I am hoping that Fuuma will come in here and give us the semiotic
                analysis--my brain hurts just thinking about it. Am also missing
                Seventh here, who I'm sure would have some very eloquent insights. [51]

                I
                was reading a trend forecast for F/W 07-08 and it mentioned, among
                other things, that "raw" and "handmade" are on the rise. How this will
                be manifested--on the runways and in the streets--is, i suspect, very
                different from the aesthetic you are classifying as arte povera. All
                things discussed in the CCP thread aside, I think it takes a pretty
                rarefied and eccentric taste to appreciate the likes of Continues, Paul
                Harnden, Poell, etc. Their designs are too understated, and their
                appeal too subtle, to fit with the mainstream's use of fashion. These
                days it's all about standing out, expressing your individuality, blah
                blah blah. Whereas CDiem is very austere, severe, almost
                uniform-like. I definitely see them as being part of the current
                motion of fashion, but I don't see their aesthetic being directly
                appropriated and capitalized on--I just don't think many people would
                buy it.


                What I see happening now, is that fashion, having run out of ways to be new (the
                new being that which fashion depends on), is in a kind of liminal
                stage--it's coming of age. If it were a person in a traditional
                society, it would withdraw from the world, go into the woods, and maybe
                get some excruciatingly painful tattoos. Since it's not, we get to
                witness a whole mishmash of emotions, aesthetics, strategies,
                struggles, etc. Typical adolescent stuff.

                So, on the fringes of fashion we have the "raw" and the
                "handmade." It's not new, but it's very, very old--the pre-industrial,
                the bricoleur. (Bricolage being similar to what Jarid is observing in
                the dress of the homeless.) And on the runways we have nostalgic
                interpretations of the future, like Balenciaga quoting the Space
                Age--it's neither new nor old, simply outmoded. Or Dries (who is
                amazingly sensitive to the fashion weather), combing techno-fabrics
                with handmade embellishments. What I would like to see in both of
                these (wistfully) is
                a gesture towards a truly futuristic fashion. (This being what
                Chalayan has struggled with from the very beginning, in a context that's just never
                ready). I think (hope) a real futurism will be the next big move.



                Sorry for what I am sure is a most esoteric ramble. [:$] I don't have much to say about the rich/poor thing--I think it's rather moot, when we are discussing a $1000 jacket. But it's very fascinating in terms of what we hope to communicate and express with our clothes. I just want to
                add, that I think it's very limiting to see these designers in terms of
                arte povera alone. They share certain qualities with that movement,
                surely. But there are traditional Japanese aesthetics, for
                example--imperfection, perishability-- that can also (or instead) be
                discerned here.
                [/quote]



                Laika, I have a feeling (and you are confirming it with the trend forecast) that this niche market is getting big enough. And as we all know, it's a sad fact but people don't have to appreciate something in order to buy it - they can be influenced into buying it. I think such a market is certainly big enough in Japan alone, and maybe it is starting to get bigger in Europe/N.America. And these companies figure that maybe it's big enough to take a piece of the pie (like I said, a lot of money is a relative term). I look at A, and they are getting bigger and bigger, bringing in new (and EXPENSIVE) designers.



                And don't think they don't read forums like ours! I still remember how "Interior Design" magazine ripped off softgrey's tFS post about CDiem for their article.




                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                Comment

                • ollie
                  Junior Member
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 1

                  #23
                  Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N



                  Hi




                  Sorry to but in bit i was interested to read your views on Foorme and the overall Carpe Diem thing. For what it is worth i would like to write my opinion; as one of you have mentioned you are not sure how long this Forme or brands like it will last or even how they make money. I can tell you that brands like Forme are created by people that have a love and passion for what they are able to do, they would of course like to make money but yes it is hard...it is more a case of short term loss long term gain. I feel it is extremely hard to creat collections like a Forme without being a master of design; i too have seen it in The Library and it is incredible. I personally have 10 pieces from the line.




                  Thanks for reading




                  Ollie

                  Comment

                  • JaridRose
                    Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 50

                    #24
                    Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N



                    Here's a link to a story about the designer and the brand...




                    http://www.thememagazine.com/index.p...sk=view&id=102

                    Comment

                    • Faust
                      kitsch killer
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 37852

                      #25
                      Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

                      [quote user="ollie"]

                      Hi




                      Sorry to but in bit i was interested to read your views on Foorme and the overall Carpe Diem thing. For what it is worth i would like to write my opinion; as one of you have mentioned you are not sure how long this Forme or brands like it will last or even how they make money. I can tell you that brands like Forme are created by people that have a love and passion for what they are able to do, they would of course like to make money but yes it is hard...it is more a case of short term loss long term gain. I feel it is extremely hard to creat collections like a Forme without being a master of design; i too have seen it in The Library and it is incredible. I personally have 10 pieces from the line.




                      Thanks for reading




                      Ollie



                      [/quote]



                      You can butt in by all means. Actually, I want you to tell us more. There is nothing wrong with making money - one has to eat. We were merely questioning authenticity of purpose, and wondering whether the relative success of CDiem is being copied here. Are you familiar with the designer personally?

                      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                      Comment

                      • Faust
                        kitsch killer
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 37852

                        #26
                        Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

                        Jarid, thanks for the article.
                        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                        Comment

                        • Fuuma
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 4050

                          #27
                          Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N



                          Reading
                          this thread has generated a few jumbled ideas that I?ll deliver to you in their
                          untangled form. Please note I don?t know the label (Forme) which means I have
                          nothing to say about it as of now; these comments concern the state of the
                          loosely linked arte poverta/ deconstructivist fashion movement we often discuss
                          in here.





                          Without
                          getting into a detailed analysis of what these theories are about, we can say
                          with certainty that one of the major findings related to the Theory of
                          innovation is that being the ?originator?, the first person/group to generate
                          an idea that will eventually be adopted in some form or another, is no
                          guarantee of success and that?s an understatement! Taking something like the idea
                          of a mass consumable moving land vehicle (a car) makes it quite easy to know
                          why; the enormous amount of technological(roads, energy providers, mass
                          production facilities etc) and social (new laws, change in perception, etc)
                          changes create a nearly impregnable barrier to entry for the ?innovator?. We
                          could say that, for an idea to be properly implemented it has to make its way,
                          via some spectacular but promising failures noticed by the right people, into
                          the mind of key players of the industrial, scientific, political and cultural
                          world. In my mind this parallels the Everett Rogers model used in marketing (am
                          I aiming at creating an unified theory of change or what!!), where ?innovators?
                          (the really out there, cutting edge, creative people) start something, are
                          spotted by early adopters (the cultural elite looking for new stuff) who will
                          take the crazy innovator idea, work their magic to make the idea palatable to a
                          large number and then unleash it unto the majority, who ends up crediting the
                          early adopters with the idea. This is why your ultimate music geek friends are
                          mad when you say Nirvana started grunge or something; you?re not giving credit
                          where credit is due (which to the mind of the ultimate music geek is always to
                          the innovator, no matter how outlandish and un-listenable the ?great? band
                          was?). So if the arte poverta fashion movement really is on the cusp of hitting
                          it big (relatively speaking), I guess we?re the ultimate music geek and we?re
                          anticipating having to deal with all the idiots who can?t distinguish the New
                          York Dolls from the Sex Pistols. It is natural to be somewhat anxious and talk
                          about co-opting and blablabla but, considering the rawness that drew us to the
                          original concept; it?s no wonder a new take on it has to emerge before it can
                          gain wider popularity.





                          The whole
                          ?poor people? side discussion reminded me of something I once read, that made
                          me sad and angry at the time: (I?m paraphrasing) ?after you?ve hit 25 y/o, the weight of social class
                          comes back on you full force and it?s almost impossible to escape it,
                          especially in your love life?. I do think its true, but it should only make you
                          want to do everything in your power to avoid having your life dictated by such
                          an unrelated outside force. On a more related note, the myth of the starving
                          artist comes from a huge pileup of romantic ideals that reacted with one
                          another; dissecting it completely would be a task akin to what an archeologist
                          has to face when he works on the various ?levels? of an ancient site. I would
                          say the idea that someone has live a little to create something that evokes
                          something beyond mere plastic perfection is not that crazy, but restricting it
                          to a simple economical calculus is reductive to say the least. The acuity of
                          the gaze a creator poses on what surrounds him is of the utmost importance,
                          what surrounds him being somewhat irrelevant. That being said, knowing an artist
                          had a fascinating life, does add something to our appreciation of their work,
                          but I?d be hard pressed to distinguish the part that comes from the artist from
                          the baggage we brought due to knowing that information, art interpretation
                          being as much about the viewer as the creator?



                          Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                          http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                          Comment

                          • kompressorkev
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 685

                            #28
                            Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N

                            i'm a bit intruiged by this brand, not exactly sure what to think of it. reminds me of a mixb/t Volga Volga, Attachment (at least the US-stores' buys), & Paul Harnden.the name is a bit gimmicky in my opinion, and some of the overly-distressed fabric treatmentsmaybe bit garish or trying too hard. i think a well-edited buy could fare pretty well, though i haven't seenit in stores.some piecesstill preserve anappealing edge to me, though i'm not sure ifthat iscommunicated through the clothing itselfor by its presentation from whati've seen so far. on the website, some pieces look promising,but at least thebuy from pollyanna seems a bit boring.of course the presentation has an influence on the brand's aesthetic, but i'mcurious how inspiringthe clothes are themselves. anyway, i just ordered this f/w blazer, hoping that i can comment a bit onits quality/cut/etc. when it arrives:



                            here's some pics of the clothing (from factoryoffaith website):











                            Comment

                            • kompressorkev
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 685

                              #29
                              Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N










                              Comment

                              • lowrey
                                ventiundici
                                • Dec 2006
                                • 8383

                                #30
                                Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N




                                I havent seen a lot of stuff from them at stores, but they have some interesting looking pieces. some of theirFW06 look pics are really nice.did L'eclaireur have their stuff at some point?




                                this jacket looks pretty cool:





                                "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

                                STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

                                Comment

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