/\ I think mostly people like poor artists, because a poor artist has a story to tell that will help the gallery owners sell his stuff - I don't think it's any indication of their talent. Imagine a guy say, "Here is a good painting done by a silver-spooner who has never felt a material need," - it maybe a great painting but the rich people who buy art will find it boring. They want a story - contemporary art for the most part is trash - they can't hold a candle to old masters in terms of skill and artistic difficulty - so you gotta replace that with something. You got a black square, anyone can do that - now you have to pad that with a concept, a story. And with the half-myth that all great art comes out from painful experience, you now need a poor suffering person to do it. I know Seventh is going to hate me, but read Robert Hughes, "Art and the Theraputic Fallacy," - it's all there.
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Forme D'expression
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
/\ I think mostly people like poor artists, because a poor artist has a story to tell that will help the gallery owners sell his stuff - I don't think it's any indication of their talent. Imagine a guy say, "Here is a good painting done by a silver-spooner who has never felt a material need," - it maybe a great painting but the rich people who buy art will find it boring. They want a story - contemporary art for the most part is trash - they can't hold a candle to old masters in terms of skill and artistic difficulty - so you gotta replace that with something. You got a black square, anyone can do that - now you have to pad that with a concept, a story. And with the half-myth that all great art comes out from painful experience, you now need a poor suffering person to do it. I know Seventh is going to hate me, but read Robert Hughes, "Art and the Theraputic Fallacy," - it's all there.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde
StyleZeitgeist Magazine
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Just a disclaimer - I don't hate rich people (when they are good people) !!! [:D]
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde
StyleZeitgeist Magazine
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Fascinating posts, Jarid and Faust. You've touched on so many things,
and I am hoping that Fuuma will come in here and give us the semiotic
analysis--my brain hurts just thinking about it. Am also missing
Seventh here, who I'm sure would have some very eloquent insights. [51]
I
was reading a trend forecast for F/W 07-08 and it mentioned, among
other things, that "raw" and "handmade" are on the rise. How this will
be manifested--on the runways and in the streets--is, i suspect, very
different from the aesthetic you are classifying as arte povera. All
things discussed in the CCP thread aside, I think it takes a pretty
rarefied and eccentric taste to appreciate the likes of Continues, Paul
Harnden, Poell, etc. Their designs are too understated, and their
appeal too subtle, to fit with the mainstream's use of fashion. These
days it's all about standing out, expressing your individuality, blah
blah blah. Whereas CDiem is very austere, severe, almost
uniform-like. I definitely see them as being part of the current
motion of fashion, but I don't see their aesthetic being directly
appropriated and capitalized on--I just don't think many people would
buy it.
What I see happening now, is that fashion, having run out of ways to be new (the
new being that which fashion depends on), is in a kind of liminal
stage--it's coming of age. If it were a person in a traditional
society, it would withdraw from the world, go into the woods, and maybe
get some excruciatingly painful tattoos. Since it's not, we get to
witness a whole mishmash of emotions, aesthetics, strategies,
struggles, etc. Typical adolescent stuff.
So, on the fringes of fashion we have the "raw" and the
"handmade." It's not new, but it's very, very old--the pre-industrial,
the bricoleur. (Bricolage being similar to what Jarid is observing in
the dress of the homeless.) And on the runways we have nostalgic
interpretations of the future, like Balenciaga quoting the Space
Age--it's neither new nor old, simply outmoded. Or Dries (who is
amazingly sensitive to the fashion weather), combing techno-fabrics
with handmade embellishments. What I would like to see in both of
these (wistfully) is
a gesture towards a truly futuristic fashion. (This being what
Chalayan has struggled with from the very beginning, in a context that's just never
ready). I think (hope) a real futurism will be the next big move.
Sorry for what I am sure is a most esoteric ramble. [:$] I don't have much to say about the rich/poor thing--I think it's rather moot, when we are discussing a $1000 jacket. But it's very fascinating in terms of what we hope to communicate and express with our clothes. I just want to
add, that I think it's very limiting to see these designers in terms of
arte povera alone. They share certain qualities with that movement,
surely. But there are traditional Japanese aesthetics, for
example--imperfection, perishability-- that can also (or instead) be
discerned here.
...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
[quote user="Faust"]
I've always wondered why these trust fund baby hipsters always try to look poor, as if they are ashamed of something.
[/quote]
maybe its the misanthrope in me, but I always thought the answer was simpler than that. I don't give people that much credit...I think less real thought was put into it...and they just want to either try to keep it "real" (deluded), be exclusive (aka special and unique, which may in turn be inferred as "better than you") or just want to emulate a certain "look" (which is the counterpointto exclusive, i.e. "jumping on the bandwagon" or find association and "fit in")....with not much genuinepurpose behind it...kinda harsh view i know, and I admit I'm no saint to all this either...I've disappointingly fallen to such mindless acts myself....
oh,and while we're at it...i come from an middle class family and justhate everyone...hehe ;-p
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
[quote user="laika"]Fascinating posts, Jarid and Faust. You've touched on so many things,
and I am hoping that Fuuma will come in here and give us the semiotic
analysis--my brain hurts just thinking about it. Am also missing
Seventh here, who I'm sure would have some very eloquent insights. [51]
I
was reading a trend forecast for F/W 07-08 and it mentioned, among
other things, that "raw" and "handmade" are on the rise. How this will
be manifested--on the runways and in the streets--is, i suspect, very
different from the aesthetic you are classifying as arte povera. All
things discussed in the CCP thread aside, I think it takes a pretty
rarefied and eccentric taste to appreciate the likes of Continues, Paul
Harnden, Poell, etc. Their designs are too understated, and their
appeal too subtle, to fit with the mainstream's use of fashion. These
days it's all about standing out, expressing your individuality, blah
blah blah. Whereas CDiem is very austere, severe, almost
uniform-like. I definitely see them as being part of the current
motion of fashion, but I don't see their aesthetic being directly
appropriated and capitalized on--I just don't think many people would
buy it.
What I see happening now, is that fashion, having run out of ways to be new (the
new being that which fashion depends on), is in a kind of liminal
stage--it's coming of age. If it were a person in a traditional
society, it would withdraw from the world, go into the woods, and maybe
get some excruciatingly painful tattoos. Since it's not, we get to
witness a whole mishmash of emotions, aesthetics, strategies,
struggles, etc. Typical adolescent stuff.
So, on the fringes of fashion we have the "raw" and the
"handmade." It's not new, but it's very, very old--the pre-industrial,
the bricoleur. (Bricolage being similar to what Jarid is observing in
the dress of the homeless.) And on the runways we have nostalgic
interpretations of the future, like Balenciaga quoting the Space
Age--it's neither new nor old, simply outmoded. Or Dries (who is
amazingly sensitive to the fashion weather), combing techno-fabrics
with handmade embellishments. What I would like to see in both of
these (wistfully) is
a gesture towards a truly futuristic fashion. (This being what
Chalayan has struggled with from the very beginning, in a context that's just never
ready). I think (hope) a real futurism will be the next big move.
Sorry for what I am sure is a most esoteric ramble. [:$] I don't have much to say about the rich/poor thing--I think it's rather moot, when we are discussing a $1000 jacket. But it's very fascinating in terms of what we hope to communicate and express with our clothes. I just want to
add, that I think it's very limiting to see these designers in terms of
arte povera alone. They share certain qualities with that movement,
surely. But there are traditional Japanese aesthetics, for
example--imperfection, perishability-- that can also (or instead) be
discerned here.
[/quote]
Laika, I have a feeling (and you are confirming it with the trend forecast) that this niche market is getting big enough. And as we all know, it's a sad fact but people don't have to appreciate something in order to buy it - they can be influenced into buying it. I think such a market is certainly big enough in Japan alone, and maybe it is starting to get bigger in Europe/N.America. And these companies figure that maybe it's big enough to take a piece of the pie (like I said, a lot of money is a relative term). I look at A, and they are getting bigger and bigger, bringing in new (and EXPENSIVE) designers.
And don't think they don't read forums like ours! I still remember how "Interior Design" magazine ripped off softgrey's tFS post about CDiem for their article.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde
StyleZeitgeist Magazine
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Hi
Sorry to but in bit i was interested to read your views on Foorme and the overall Carpe Diem thing. For what it is worth i would like to write my opinion; as one of you have mentioned you are not sure how long this Forme or brands like it will last or even how they make money. I can tell you that brands like Forme are created by people that have a love and passion for what they are able to do, they would of course like to make money but yes it is hard...it is more a case of short term loss long term gain. I feel it is extremely hard to creat collections like a Forme without being a master of design; i too have seen it in The Library and it is incredible. I personally have 10 pieces from the line.
Thanks for reading
Ollie
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Here's a link to a story about the designer and the brand...
http://www.thememagazine.com/index.p...sk=view&id=102
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
[quote user="ollie"]
Hi
Sorry to but in bit i was interested to read your views on Foorme and the overall Carpe Diem thing. For what it is worth i would like to write my opinion; as one of you have mentioned you are not sure how long this Forme or brands like it will last or even how they make money. I can tell you that brands like Forme are created by people that have a love and passion for what they are able to do, they would of course like to make money but yes it is hard...it is more a case of short term loss long term gain. I feel it is extremely hard to creat collections like a Forme without being a master of design; i too have seen it in The Library and it is incredible. I personally have 10 pieces from the line.
Thanks for reading
Ollie
[/quote]
You can butt in by all means. Actually, I want you to tell us more. There is nothing wrong with making money - one has to eat. We were merely questioning authenticity of purpose, and wondering whether the relative success of CDiem is being copied here. Are you familiar with the designer personally?Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde
StyleZeitgeist Magazine
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Jarid, thanks for the article.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde
StyleZeitgeist Magazine
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
Reading
this thread has generated a few jumbled ideas that I?ll deliver to you in their
untangled form. Please note I don?t know the label (Forme) which means I have
nothing to say about it as of now; these comments concern the state of the
loosely linked arte poverta/ deconstructivist fashion movement we often discuss
in here.
Without
getting into a detailed analysis of what these theories are about, we can say
with certainty that one of the major findings related to the Theory of
innovation is that being the ?originator?, the first person/group to generate
an idea that will eventually be adopted in some form or another, is no
guarantee of success and that?s an understatement! Taking something like the idea
of a mass consumable moving land vehicle (a car) makes it quite easy to know
why; the enormous amount of technological(roads, energy providers, mass
production facilities etc) and social (new laws, change in perception, etc)
changes create a nearly impregnable barrier to entry for the ?innovator?. We
could say that, for an idea to be properly implemented it has to make its way,
via some spectacular but promising failures noticed by the right people, into
the mind of key players of the industrial, scientific, political and cultural
world. In my mind this parallels the Everett Rogers model used in marketing (am
I aiming at creating an unified theory of change or what!!), where ?innovators?
(the really out there, cutting edge, creative people) start something, are
spotted by early adopters (the cultural elite looking for new stuff) who will
take the crazy innovator idea, work their magic to make the idea palatable to a
large number and then unleash it unto the majority, who ends up crediting the
early adopters with the idea. This is why your ultimate music geek friends are
mad when you say Nirvana started grunge or something; you?re not giving credit
where credit is due (which to the mind of the ultimate music geek is always to
the innovator, no matter how outlandish and un-listenable the ?great? band
was?). So if the arte poverta fashion movement really is on the cusp of hitting
it big (relatively speaking), I guess we?re the ultimate music geek and we?re
anticipating having to deal with all the idiots who can?t distinguish the New
York Dolls from the Sex Pistols. It is natural to be somewhat anxious and talk
about co-opting and blablabla but, considering the rawness that drew us to the
original concept; it?s no wonder a new take on it has to emerge before it can
gain wider popularity.
The whole
?poor people? side discussion reminded me of something I once read, that made
me sad and angry at the time: (I?m paraphrasing) ?after you?ve hit 25 y/o, the weight of social class
comes back on you full force and it?s almost impossible to escape it,
especially in your love life?. I do think its true, but it should only make you
want to do everything in your power to avoid having your life dictated by such
an unrelated outside force. On a more related note, the myth of the starving
artist comes from a huge pileup of romantic ideals that reacted with one
another; dissecting it completely would be a task akin to what an archeologist
has to face when he works on the various ?levels? of an ancient site. I would
say the idea that someone has live a little to create something that evokes
something beyond mere plastic perfection is not that crazy, but restricting it
to a simple economical calculus is reductive to say the least. The acuity of
the gaze a creator poses on what surrounds him is of the utmost importance,
what surrounds him being somewhat irrelevant. That being said, knowing an artist
had a fascinating life, does add something to our appreciation of their work,
but I?d be hard pressed to distinguish the part that comes from the artist from
the baggage we brought due to knowing that information, art interpretation
being as much about the viewer as the creator?
Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
i'm a bit intruiged by this brand, not exactly sure what to think of it. reminds me of a mixb/t Volga Volga, Attachment (at least the US-stores' buys), & Paul Harnden.the name is a bit gimmicky in my opinion, and some of the overly-distressed fabric treatmentsmaybe bit garish or trying too hard. i think a well-edited buy could fare pretty well, though i haven't seenit in stores.some piecesstill preserve anappealing edge to me, though i'm not sure ifthat iscommunicated through the clothing itselfor by its presentation from whati've seen so far. on the website, some pieces look promising,but at least thebuy from pollyanna seems a bit boring.of course the presentation has an influence on the brand's aesthetic, but i'mcurious how inspiringthe clothes are themselves. anyway, i just ordered this f/w blazer, hoping that i can comment a bit onits quality/cut/etc. when it arrives:
here's some pics of the clothing (from factoryoffaith website):
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Re: FORME 3'3204322896 F O R M D ' E X P R E S S I O N
I havent seen a lot of stuff from them at stores, but they have some interesting looking pieces. some of theirFW06 look pics are really nice.did L'eclaireur have their stuff at some point?
this jacket looks pretty cool:
"AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."
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