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Thread: the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics

  1. #1

    Default the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics



    Ok,</P>


    I am starting this thread, not knowing if anyone will contribute, but thats fine. </P>


    I believe that it is indeed possible that individuals can (and should) have honest discussions on Subjects such as Race, Religion, Politics, Sexuality etc, anything that affects the "Human Condition".</P>


    these discussions need not be derogatory rude or mean spirited, maybe i am foolish, or Naive, as i do understand that these topics often bring about a great deal of emotions (sometimes unrestrained) in people. but me..........i am not politically correct, nor can be, and is more than willing to state my position on certain subjects, and the reason(s) as to why i hold such positions.</P>


    I hate no one, nor do i believe that persons should be Marginalized or victimized for the choices they make, but that being said i am not amoralistic, not do i belive in a "free to do whatever society"........If we do have a discussion, I intend to leave with the same level of respect for persons as i came with...until then.</P>


    ZB</P>
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


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  2. #2

    Default Re: the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics



    Zamb, your position on this seems reasonable. Was there a problem somewhere in a thread?</P>

  3. #3

    Default Re: the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics

    Provided their decisions do not impact another, I believe people should be free to do whatever they choose.
    I am not who you think I am

  4. #4

    Default Re: the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics



    [quote user="mortalveneer"]Provided their decisions do not impact another, I believe people should be free to do whatever they choose.
    [/quote]</P>


    can you give an example of an action that doesnt affect anyone at all, and how do you equate this to an individual choice that may be self destructive...........</P>
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

  5. #5

    Default Re: the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics

    [quote user="clay"]


    Zamb, your position on this seems reasonable. Was there a problem somewhere in a thread?</P>


    [/quote]</P>


    No not really, i just stated a perspective and it seemed somewhat offensive to some, which wasnt the intent. my only concern is when individuals want freedom to make a decision, but dont want others to be free to disagree with the decisions they make, especially if there are logical/ rational reasons for the disagreement</P>
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

  6. #6

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    ahh... linguistics as a view into human nature... naturally.

    I don't think rationality has any moral ground to stand on. Rationality has gotten us into just about every mess imaginable from the Inquisition to the current financial crisis. In short, you can rationalize just about anything with a simple turn of phrase or fact. For the most part we may be able to reach a consensus on the rights of others based merely on our gut feelings, instincts, common sense, etc. but there's no such thing as universal morality in this world.
    Quote Originally Posted by merz View Post
    perhaps one day pipcleo will post a wywt so non-euclydian & eldrich in its shapes as to turn all onlookers into throngs of dishevelled, muttering idiots

  7. #7

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    Inb4 positive constructivism.
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  8. #8
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    I found this pretty interesting. Doesn't mean that I agree with, but interesting nonetheless.
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  9. #9

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    Speaking of which, I found the original quote by Rivera the other day.


  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Preach it. It's high time someone pointed a finger not at Fox but at the ignorant, immoral, mean rednecks it panders to.
    i'm not going to quote beardowns post as well but i have been thinking about this lately. 2 things keep coming to mind

    1. Incompetent people are inherently unable to judge the competence of other people, or the quality of those people’s ideas. Very smart ideas are going to be hard for people to adopt, because most people don’t have the sophistication to recognize how good an idea is. What’s worse is that with incompetence comes the illusion of superiority. So what its going to come down to for a huge swath of the american public is basically this: who do they trust? who do they identify with? and why? The problem for progressives, people with ideas, people that want to change things is that no matter how much information is provided, the unsophisticated will a) be incapable of recognizing the wisdom of a good idea; b) assume they know better; and c) have no idea of the extent of their inadequacy. In other words, stupid people are too stupid to know how stupid they are. And they vote.

    2. Republican Christianity - Christianity is powerful in this country. And not just in the South. Now I am not dogging Christianity, I'm saying it has been co-opted by the right to secure votes for an otherwise unlikable party.

    Christian moral values, as exemplified in the teachings of Jesus, greatly resemble the moral values of the Democratic Party, whereas they are flatly inconsistent with the moral values of the Republican Party. So how did it come to be that the Republicans are known as the “Christian” Party, whereas the Democrats in many circles are considered the anti-Christian Party?

    Today’s Republican Party is a party of insatiable greed, selfishness, corruption, and even immorality. It’s pretty difficult to generate political appeal on a platform like that. In fact, it’s pretty difficult to get people with even a modicum of intelligence to buy into the Republican agenda, given how far the actions of the today’s Republican Party deviate from general standards of human decency. But still, those are the best voters to go for, aren't they? Yes. And the Republicans go full force using phony fear and faith.

    Basically, the Republican Party has adopted the bold strategy of turning logic upside down and pretending to be the exact opposite of what they truly are. They claim to be strict followers of a great moral religion. And to prove it, they adopt a bunch of strict moral codes that cost them nothing, and at the same time which appear to have some resemblance to that religion. Gay marriage, abortion, stem cells, creationism, prayer in schools and on and on and on. All these issues are free. They cost nothing. To anyone. Its perfect. By so doing, they hope to turn attention away from the fact that the true “moral code” of their party, as measured by their actions, is actually empty of morals. And unfortunately, they’ve been quite successful in perpetuating this fraud in recent years. And the simpletons line up for these trustworthy God fearing white men that are just like them.
    dying and coming back gives you considerable perspective

  11. #11

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    I get the feeling that the Republicans have shot themselves in the foot, in the long term, with the way they've constructed themselves and their alleged ideals. Gay marriage, stem cells, and general religiosity has limited traction amongst my generation even among social and fiscal conservatives - most of the right wing people I know in my peer group would be best defined as paleo-conservatives, who are totally ideologically opposed to the mainstream Republican party in terms of economics and who approach social issues like immigration and illegal immigration from a merely pragmatic as opposed to quietly racist perspective. Incidentally, all of them support Ron Paul and would be quicker to abstain from voting or vote for a third party than vote for Romney et al.

    Decades from now high school social studies will cover this period of the Republican party as they currently cover the closing days of the Whig party.

  12. #12

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    I think you're both right. The GOP created a monster out of itself and eventually, like Frankenstein's monster, they can't control it. When you create a culture of fear using specific propaganda and lies, you end up with a base of cowards who go away from something rather than toward it.

    Which is why progress becomes such an issue with Republicans and this clinging to old concepts and ideas with the modern GOP politicians.

    I have not a single problem with true conservatives. It's just that there are so very few in the GOP. The left has headed right and the right has gone off the deep end. They wanted someone to 'meet them in the aisle,' they got it and they continued to push further right.

    The whole time, referring to anything fair and reasonable as 'socialism' or 'communism' and a bunch of other terms that most of them don't really understand. And certainly don't apply as they try to apply them in many instances.

    I do have a problem with a nation run by fear and hatred. And that's where my biggest problem comes in. This idea that if someone claims to be a 'christian,' they get a pass in America. There is the popular saying, "When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and waving a cross." And I don't believe anyone has ever correctly attributed that quote to anyone but it rings true.

    There is this idea from the right that as long as you justify your actions as being 'christian,' then you can do whatever you like. So they've built this DIY religion that seems to polarize everyone. But most educated people realize that the teachings of Jesus were about acceptance, forgiveness, tolerance and love. And you see none of that from the far right organizations that constantly target homosexuality, immigrants, other religions, minorities, etc.

    In my view, the right is controlled by a handful of very rich, powerful people who set these make believe 'standards,' promote them and attempt to justify them by creating a narrative on Fox News of weak opinions that they try to broadcast as 'news,' and then watch as viewers do exactly what they're told to do. Fear this, fear that, hate this, hate that. It has become a political party of fear and hatred. And no nation, no party can succeed using those standards as a kind of guiding light.

    I'm not particularly happy with the left either. But I much prefer spineless, impotent politicians to evil, manipulating ones with the very worst of intentions for the vast majority of America. One is just weak and ineffective for the most part at this point; the other is downright vile and evil if you look at the truth and the legislation proposed by these politicians who, for the most part, seem to just be carrying out the demands of a higher power. (And psst: It's not so much a religious influence as an economic influence).

    I'm a bit discouraged by how few Americans seem to really care about politics. And yes, everyone had an opinion it seems but the key to political progress is to use facts, logic, reason, history and truth to guide decisions rather than hatred and fear.
    Last edited by beardown; 03-30-2012 at 11:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mizzar View Post
    Sorry for being kind of a dick to you.

  13. #13

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    http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly050504.htm

    As a rehabilitated Communist (read The Manifesto at thirteen, how could I NOT buy into it?) I've always viewed categorizing any mainstream politician as "left" pretty hilarious. Kucinich not withstanding (no one likes him!!)

  14. #14
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patroklus View Post
    I get the feeling that the Republicans have shot themselves in the foot, in the long term, with the way they've constructed themselves and their alleged ideals. Gay marriage, stem cells, and general religiosity has limited traction amongst my generation even among social and fiscal conservatives - most of the right wing people I know in my peer group would be best defined as paleo-conservatives, who are totally ideologically opposed to the mainstream Republican party in terms of economics and who approach social issues like immigration and illegal immigration from a merely pragmatic as opposed to quietly racist perspective. Incidentally, all of them support Ron Paul and would be quicker to abstain from voting or vote for a third party than vote for Romney et al.

    Decades from now high school social studies will cover this period of the Republican party as they currently cover the closing days of the Whig party.
    Yeah, but do they vote?
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  15. #15

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    Yes. I have been encouraging all of my friends to pick candidates that genuinely represent their views, regardless of political affiliation. I only believe that third party votes are wasted because everyone else feels that way and begrudgingly picks "the lesser of two evils". Nothing is going to change if people keep doing that.

  16. #16

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    I don't believe in the possibility for positive systematic change as exerted through our federal political system by casting one's vote.
    I am not who you think I am

  17. #17

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    On one hand, voting and jury duty are essential acts of citizenship.
    On the other hand, forcibly abstaining itself from established political forum was the best thing OWS could have done for itself, as evidenced by the mainstream media and politicians being completely unable to comprehend it. The Tea Party, by comparison, attempted to work within the system and was quickly co-opted and gutted.

  18. #18

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    That's not to say I don't vote along minority party lines for symbolic/signalling reasons you mentioned above. Just an assessment of the linkage between change that occurs through our federal system and one's given vote.
    I am not who you think I am

  19. #19
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortalveneer View Post
    I don't believe in the possibility for positive systematic change as exerted through our federal political system by casting one's vote.
    I think that's a shortsighted view. Maybe on the matters of economy it does not make much difference about who is in power - the $ is in power (although I could point out that republicans think global warming is a hoax and we should drill our way into oblivion), but on matters of personal freedom and welfare, such as civil rights and healthcare, there is a huge differences between republicans and democrats, and I think abstaining from voting is irresponsible. Or in David Foster Wallace's words:

    "If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties, who please rest assured are not dumb, and who are keenly aware that it is in their interests to keep you disgusted and bored and cynical and to give you every possible psychological reason to stay at home doing one-hitters and watching MTV on primary day. By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting. In reality, there is no such ting as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard's vote."
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    I think that's a shortsighted view...

    "If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties... By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting..."
    All good points, which is part of the reason I do vote, as referenced in the preceding post. However, I don't cherish the illusion that my vote has a hope of shifting the two entrenched Establishments to which DFW refers.

    And I've seen my civil liberties deteriorate across two Bush administrations and this entire Obama administration. The rhetoric is more promising from the left, but I've yet to see anything but a retreat that picks up right where Bush left off.
    I am not who you think I am

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