the Philosophy of Politics, Religion, Morality and Ethics

[mortalveneer]

I don't believe in the possibility for positive systematic change as exerted through our federal political system by casting one's vote.

[Patroklus]

On one hand, voting and jury duty are essential acts of citizenship.
On the other hand, forcibly abstaining itself from established political forum was the best thing OWS could have done for itself, as evidenced by the mainstream media and politicians being completely unable to comprehend it. The Tea Party, by comparison, attempted to work within the system and was quickly co-opted and gutted.

[mortalveneer]

That's not to say I don't vote along minority party lines for symbolic/signalling reasons you mentioned above. Just an assessment of the linkage between change that occurs through our federal system and one's given vote.

[Faust]

I don't believe in the possibility for positive systematic change as exerted through our federal political system by casting one's vote.

I think that's a shortsighted view. Maybe on the matters of economy it does not make much difference about who is in power - the $ is in power (although I could point out that republicans think global warming is a hoax and we should drill our way into oblivion), but on matters of personal freedom and welfare, such as civil rights and healthcare, there is a huge differences between republicans and democrats, and I think abstaining from voting is irresponsible. Or in David Foster Wallace's words:

"If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties, who please rest assured are not dumb, and who are keenly aware that it is in their interests to keep you disgusted and bored and cynical and to give you every possible psychological reason to stay at home doing one-hitters and watching MTV on primary day. By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting. In reality, there is no such ting as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard's vote."

[mortalveneer]

I think that's a shortsighted view...

"If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties... By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting..."

All good points, which is part of the reason I do vote, as referenced in the preceding post. However, I don't cherish the illusion that my vote has a hope of shifting the two entrenched Establishments to which DFW refers.

And I've seen my civil liberties deteriorate across two Bush administrations and this entire Obama administration. The rhetoric is more promising from the left, but I've yet to see anything but a retreat that picks up right where Bush left off.

[Patroklus]

^reported to the DHS

[endorphinz]

i detest politics and politicians, who, imo,are nuthin more than salesmen lookin to grab your $$. power is $$ and the world is all about the benjamins. politicians would like you to believe they long to serve the public but their only true interest is serving their "crew" . the world is comprised of special interest groups and "mother teresas" are rare, unfortunately.

I usually actively abstain from voting. I go to the poll,wait on line, enter the booth and then pull 1 or 2 levers for insignificant local races. I do this to demonstrate that I am not apathetic nor lazy but rather indifferent to the process.

yes I am extremely cynical and no, given my acceptance of human nature, i can't offer a better solution.

[cjbreed]

here is a quote from Richard Nixon's political strategist Kevin Phillips describing the basic gist of what has become known as Nixon's Southern Strategy. The Southern Strategy refers to the Republican Party strategy of winning elections in Southern states by exploiting anti-African American racism and fears of lawlessness among Southern white voters and appealing to fears of growing federal power in social and economic matters (generally lumped under the concept of states' rights).

From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats

this is a real thing. this is openly acknowledged. this worked. and this is exactly what's happening now. only it is no longer just about african americans. we have all new people to hate and fear: gays, muslims, scientists.

the good news in my opinion is that civil rights are an inevitability. and sooner or later these old white men will die off and the next generation that has had more exposure and more knowledge will not be so easily drawn in by this obviously ignorant and primitive instinct of fear.

on the other hand. if you are able to keep the majority of your citizens poor - due to decreasing salaries and benefits and scarcity of good jobs, dumb - due to shitty education, tired - due to overwork and underpay, and sick - due to atrocious fucking healthcare, then you may actually be able to cultivate this fear and anger indefinitely. and as long as you keep shoving it down their throats there is a good chance the masses will also continue to cling to a dangerous misunderstanding of their good Christian beliefs. and you can continue to build that alliance of us against them because thats what God wants. you believe in God don't you?

thanks wikipedia

[endorphinz]

ignorance is indeed bliss and religion is oh so comforting

[Faust]

All good points, which is part of the reason I do vote, as referenced in the preceding post. However, I don't cherish the illusion that my vote has a hope of shifting the two entrenched Establishments to which DFW refers.

And I've seen my civil liberties deteriorate across two Bush administrations and this entire Obama administration. The rhetoric is more promising from the left, but I've yet to see anything but a retreat that picks up right where Bush left off.

Your other post read like you vote for independents and other parties than the two major ones (which is as much of a waste of a vote as not voting). Did I misunderstand you?

[cjbreed]

^reported to the DHS

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, FILM SOMETHING

[Magic1]

That's a great video, as sad as it is.


Faust, although I think that voting for an independent is useless, it is far better than not voting at all. your statement suggests that if you aren't voting for someone who has a chance at winning, then your vote is useless. Would you have said "voting for mcgovern is as bad as not voting at all?" everyone knew he was going to lose, just as much as we all know the next independent presidential candidates won't win, but some people still wanted to show their support. So as much as I think that voting for an independent is useless, I think that it's far better than not voting at all.

And after all, voting democrat or republican is pretty useless if you ask me.

Somehow I feel that even if Romney is in position to which a landslide victory (which won't happen, btw), you'll still vote for obama. And I'd support you.

[Rosenrot]

I cannot contribute much to what has been said about American politics, considering I'm on the other side of the world. However as far flung as this tiny island is from the US, I'm sad to say that Republican smear campaigns has made its way here. My mom, bless her soul, told me with much conviction one fine day that Obama is a Muslim and he's planning to shut down the Catholic hospitals that do not offer abortions.

The reason why she believed so strongly on these so-called facts is because it came from one of the Sisters (nuns) from the church we attend. When I tried to point out that she (and the Sister) might be misinformed and she should verify the facts herself she called me naive for believing what's on BBC, CNN, etc, and being anti-Catholic. My mom is an intelligent person, used to run a bank and all, and taught me to think for myself, so I just can't believe that religion has reduced her to this state.

Which is why I can almost relate to this article:

One could easily list many more such commonplace delusions believed by Americans. They are kept in circulation by hundreds of right-wing political and religious media outlets whose function is to fabricate an alternate reality for their viewers and their listeners.

[Faust]

/\ This is incredibly sad!

Magic1, I have to respectfully disagree. Voting indie does take away the same votes (prime example would be someone like Nader weakening the potential Democratic base), and, no, voting Dem or Rep is absolutely NOT useless (since you are implying that both parties are the same).

[Magic1]

If the problem is that you are taking away votes from someone else, then that's kind of a goofy problem...all votes are taken away from someone else, right? I know nadar took many democratic votes from gore, but gore lost them on his own.


Is the problem with voting for an independent that you are voting for someone who has no chance of winning?

I think that is what you are saying. And that is a problematic argument. Like I said before, would voting for McGovern been pointless? May have been useless in the "utile" sense, but it certainly had a point.