Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

[DHC]

This may not be the appropriate place to post as it is not a discussion of any single designer in particular. Please reassign if needed Faust.

So there are designers that refuse to be bound by "fashion" and have a distinct vision of how they can, in essence, broaden its horizons. And there are those who masterfully manipulate classics. While the latter may push the envelope to a point, they may not exactly be redefining anything.

A couple of examples I'd like to present to start this off are:

Artistic expression: Martin Margiela's cloven hoof shoe was dismissed by many and brushed under the carpet because they were ugly. I saw these and I was instantly transported to a fantastic realm of mythological beings running across rolling hills. Haha! Silly as it sounds, I was moved. I thought they were wonderful. Though Tabi/split toe shoes are not uncommon in Japan, Margiela had unveiled it with reconfigured lines that gave the shoe a pronounced beast-like appearance. Marvelous.

Sartorial engineering: Maurizio Amadei had taken the wallet and produced a piece that exhibits infinite refinement. The everyday men's accessory is still the same in shape, but so much more elegant upon handling. A single piece of leather that has been folded and molded without sign of seams. It is the obvious product of brilliance that instills a sense of awe due to the designer's technical prowess. Or at least this was the case with me on my first handling.

Both provoke strong visceral responses, but they are very different in nature. Which is it that holds more merit to you in its relation to fashion? Why? And let's not get into the marriage of both are ideal or one cannot be without the other cop-out. Where's the fun in that? Oh, and a synopsis of an experience with your choice would be great too. That should provide some fun reading, non? Thanks.

[enak]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



I think in every design driven or artistic industry, be it fashion, product design, architecture or textile innovation to name a few, there has to exist a certain handful of designers who do provide a relatively or absolutely new point of view as this is the closest thing to invention as is possible in an established field of work. These new points of view provide inspiration for other people to come up with whatever they choose to take from the first and propagate it contributing to endless mutations forward.

Of course there are also genuinely useless designs and designers where there is no merit at all, but thats for another topic :)

Just my 2c.

P.s. reading back I think I've only repeated a few points of what you have already written, but oh well!

P.p.s. First post i think, i've been reading on and off for a while.

[jsp]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



I would go with artistic expression because it's not limited to many constraints and involves a more creative aspect of fashion.

[Faust]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



To me it's the marriage of both that's ultimately exciting.

It's funny you should mention Margiela within the artistic expression, because actually I think he does the sartorial engineering much more! He's all about tinkering with the classics.

If I had to pick one over the other, I would say artistic expression. It's just more exciting, I think. But, yea, you threw a real ranch there with no mixing requirement! Pfff...[86]

[Fuuma]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

Why should these categories be separated, I'd say a work that makes you gaze at something as if you've seen it for the first time is definitely artistic expression and MMM does it by Sartorial engineering. Unless you're referring to the artisanal collection...

[DHC]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



/\ The point of this is not to say that the 2 should be separated. This is purely for the sake of discussion and has evidently lost itself somewhere. I think you are over- (or perhaps under-) analyzing logistics here. Please note that the examples sited are not of the designers, but of individual pieces. As a whole Margiela would fall under sartorial engineering, no doubts. He did a line of reproductions for Pete's sake. The shoes prompted a more emotionally based response and transported me to another place. The wallet produced a more grounded "cerebral" effect, where I had a deep appreciation for manner it was constructed. No whisking away with that one, just an intellectual appreciation for his execution more than his creativity. Granted, art makes you think. Its all art. I'm just trying to get a sense of where people place greater value. This would clue me in on a lot. Like Amadei's popularity over Altieri's current line.

And welcome to active participation here on SZ, Enak! Whether it be your 2 cents or dollar..thanks for coming out of the woods to share your thoughts.

[lowrey]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

what you defined as sartorial engineering in particular is something that I find very interesting. as long as I can remember I've enjoyed things, whether its clothes or anything else for that matter, that are slightly out of the ordinary. subtle details in design, construction, materials etc that set something apart from the ordinary is what excites me. this is probably why I love simple garments that have hardly noticeable details, for examplethe twisted seam l/s knit from Poell this s/s, it looks quite regular at first but the construction is just awesome.the m.a+ wallet is a good example, I consider it one of the coolest accesories I've bought and Ienjoy it every time I pull it out of my pocket.

[voltaire's anti-defamation league]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

yeah i like the second one more too. when shit stops resembling clothes i stop to care.

[Pinoy]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



Great topic, DHC.

Ideally, I'd like to stick one foot in both camps, but if I had to pick one, I'd go for sartorial engineering. The intellectual prowess that accompanies sartorial engineering has always fascinated me. I love the fact that certain designers can take fashion? an industry typically grounded in the aesthetic realm and blur it with engineering, which I consider to be the aesthetic realm's polar opposite.

This whole topic on aesthetic expression vs sartorial engineering is reminiscent of the book Freakonomics and how Stephen Levitt attempted to meld economic theory with pop culture.

Now that I think about it, it really is the sartorial engineering that attracts me to MA+. I am consistently amazed at how Amadei manages to not only successfully tackle the challenge of creating bags, shoes, belts, etc out of a single piece of leather, but also how it is through engineering that he manages to create his signature aesthetic.

[matthewhk]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



artistic expression...i am saying this answer just from a general glance at both phrases. Sartorial engineering, in those examples you mentioned as well (i think margiela falls into this category; he is both but leans more to this one), it strikes me as mechanic, a bit too precise. Not that I don't appreciate the work of some of these designers, because I do, but focus too much on technicalities and it lacks spontaneity to me. I think some clothes nowadays are not just overdesigned, but overengineered in that there's too much the creator is trying to achieve in one go. Sometimes a more stripped approach works better. Not necessarily saying plain t-shirts and khakis, but for example I think the upcoming winter YSL collection is a good use of artistic expression working better than mechanical, meticulous production. Artistic expression sounds like an idea that is more free flowing and fluid. Haha i can already feel where this post i'm writing is going to head in, a very predictable direction so i'll stop here.

But yeah why not be able to have both? Don't think there's any absolutes, particularly not in something as versatile as clothing. Unless you're talking bespoke suits, which even then in its extreme form of sartorial engineering there can definitely be artistic expression if the wearer brings it to life with his own touches of personal style. That is probably another discussion...

[justine]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



[quote user="matthewhk"]Sartorial engineering, in those examples you mentioned as well (i think margiela falls into this category; he is both but leans more to this one), it strikes me as mechanic, a bit too precise.[/quote]

It is for those exact reasons that I would side on the sartorial engineering. There's a cold pure beauty in those pieces, a sort of 'perfection' and complexity in design that somehow reminds me of Mathematics, it's that same sort of beauty. Closer to Plato's world of forms in a way.

[Trendy Andy]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering



I'm poor so I usually would look for the artistic expression...this way I can get more of my
money's worth out of the garment. [86]

Ok, on a serious note: [8-|]

Some might agree/disagree that artistic expression nowadays are becoming more obtuse and overstated. Then I would say to those, "thats the direction the designer wishes to go." I applaud the designer for being bold, but that doesn't mean I would buy it. It's just not the designer pieces I am looking for, but I'm sure I'll find a type of artistic expression I can relate myself with.

Artistic expression also
implies that each designer has their staple/insignia technique thats
applied to their pieces. It doesn't necessarily mean subtlety in designs in conjunction with sartorial engineering will make the construction of the pieces to be more well made or reliable. Each to its own has flaws and all pieces can be mishandle if it was dealt poorly.

Take for example, Pnods hexed CCP mummy gloves that keeps falling apart on him. And I constantly talk about the MA+ calfskin wallet to DHC which I own that I'll probably never use until I find a carrying bag to put it in. I'm afraid the frailty of the wallet if I were to stuff them in my pockets all the time, the wallet would be ruined from all the movement if I were to stand, sit, run, dance, pass out drunk, etc.

[matthewhk]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

[quote user="justine"]

[quote user="matthewhk"]Sartorial engineering, in those examples you mentioned as well (i think margiela falls into this category; he is both but leans more to this one), it strikes me as mechanic, a bit too precise.[/quote]

It is for those exact reasons that I would side on the sartorial engineering. There's a cold pure beauty in those pieces, a sort of 'perfection' and complexity in design that somehow reminds me of Mathematics, it's that same sort of beauty. Closer to Plato's world of forms in a way.

[/quote]

the cold beauty you mentioned definitely can work very well sometimes...see the old Jil Sander.

[philip nod]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

[quote user="Trendy Andy"]

I'm poor so I usually would look for the artistic expression...this way I can get more of my
money's worth out of the garment. [86]

Ok, on a serious note: [8-|]

Some might agree/disagree that artistic expression nowadays are becoming more obtuse and overstated. Then I would say to those, "thats the direction the designer wishes to go." I applaud the designer for being bold, but that doesn't mean I would buy it. It's just not the designer pieces I am looking for, but I'm sure I'll find a type of artistic expression I can relate myself with.

Artistic expression also
implies that each designer has their staple/insignia technique thats
applied to their pieces. It doesn't necessarily mean subtlety in designs in conjunction with sartorial engineering will make the construction of the pieces to be more well made or reliable. Each to its own has flaws and all pieces can be mishandle if it was dealt poorly.

Take for example, Pnods hexed CCP mummy gloves that keeps falling apart on him. And I constantly talk about the MA+ calfskin wallet to DHC which I own that I'll probably never use until I find a carrying bag to put it in. I'm afraid the frailty of the wallet if I were to stuff them in my pockets all the time, the wallet would be ruined from all the movement if I were to stand, sit, run, dance, pass out drunk, etc.

[/quote]

i spoke to jo jo at A about the gloves yesterday and he said that they had got those and that they fall apart due to the artistic cuts across the leather. they look good. just made horribly. he said he would have warned me if i had asked him before.

i've had my Ma+ calfskin wallet for at least a year and its doing great. it looks better once the cross etches into the leather from use. are you serious? a carrying bag to put your wallet in...? la la land being doing things to your brain

[ddohnggo]

Re: Artistic Expression vs. Sartorial Engineering

you don't need a carrying bag for a wallet. the leather looks way better with aging anyways.