Raf Simons loves... Kanye?

[Chinorlz]

Having been at multiple art schools and having many friends at multiple art schools I can tell you that means shit. Sometimes I want to go over here. Exceptions: RISD, Cooper Union.


Also, that NYTimes article is SO funny. Highlights:

"For years, he has been a front row fixture at many of the major shows and a first-rate fashion editor for his blog (kanyeuniversecity.com)"

"And when it comes to his own clothing label, Past Tell (formerly known as Pastelle), he is a perfectionist. Mr. West has described the line as “a mix of Marc Jacobs, Polo and American Apparel,” and waiting for its debut (which he has said will occur early next year — nearly three years after it was originally slated to hit stores) is like waiting for Godot."

What. The. Fuck?

how is that even appealing to anyone? So he's going to be selling and promoting homogeneity and mediocrity.

[BeauIXI]

Comparing hardly anyone to J Dilla is practically unfair - the man was a monster. Unstoppable.

The relationship just arises when two artists define themselves as soulful, or part of the neo-soul revolution in music.. Plus, before Kanye, J Dilla did production for Common.. That was back when he ate meat.

I can see a few artists who come close to Dilla. Madlib immediately comes to mind, and MF DOOM, though they're both slightly quirkier.

I could see Erykah Badu looking real good in Rick Owens.

[Fade to Black]

the 4 acts I named aren't necessarily the best the music world has to offer - its just they encompass an umbrella that I think is pretty definitive and representative of modern American music, as of late 2008.

[Chinorlz]

beauIXI droppin madlib and mfdoom

[Chim]

I feel like madlib and MF doom are good but not great. They can hardly come up with new significant material once in their lives, let alone yearly or twice a year.

If you look at the genre as a whole, hip hop has been defined and redefined publically and in mainstream. Hell, it was born mainstream - indie and the more socially conscious hip hop acts are more or less tributaries. If you're talking about all time hip hop greats, look at groups like a tribe called quest, or hell, it's arguable that Notorious BIG and Tupac in their prime could ever be topped by anybody. Jay Z used to be up there, but nowadays he's more a business mogul than an actual artist.

The reason that I like Kanye West is that yes he's mainstream, but he continues to be one of hip hop's innovators and he always pushes the boundaries, regardless of his popularity. Check out 808 and Heartbreak - it's a fucking R&B soul album where he (tries to) sing instead of rap. He's at the top of his game and he releases this more or less mediocre (i think some of the songs are brilliant, but some others are kinda terrible) album; who the fuck does that? The guy worked with Jon Brion for Late Registration (possibly his best album) because he liked Fiona Apple and the Eternal Sunshine soundtrack, for crissakes. I think that as far as a mainstream artist goes, you could do much worse than him. Plus he's into fashion and blogs about Aitor Throup. Who cares that he probably found out about Aitor on sites such as these? You know, we probably did too.

[Chinorlz]

Kanye is Kanye.. I've always preferred the guys who are less heralded. But I appreciate hip hop from a bboy standpoint. A sick beat, good breakdown and none of this vocoder bullshit.

Sure Kanye branches out, and that works for him (just like other artists in other genres do), but that doesn't make him unique and I don't see him as a hip hop innovator. At all. If Kanye died tomorrow, I'll tell you who'll be sad:

white sorority girls.

Giving him props for blogging about Aitor is like giving Mayer props for wearing the Rick sneaks. I guess I don't see the parallel in liking him because he's into fashion and because of his music.

I'll take Atmosphere, Souls of Mischief, Eric B & Rakim, etc. etc. over a love lockdown any day of the year, but in the end, it's a personal choice who to like and not like be they mainstream/downstream/gulfstream/airstream. I'll be the first to admit that I don't get the whole drone music thing with Sunn O))) and co. I tried!

edit-

I do have to add that hip hop was DEFINITELY not born mainstream. If anything, the mainstreaming/publicity has been nothing but a raping and bastardization of the genre. There's a constant back and forth between the Mtv rap artists and those that don't give a shit about Cristal.

[mass]

hiphop is party music... i think that's pretty constant whether mainstream or underground.

[Chim]

Does anybody seriously listen to late 70s early 80s hip hop regularly these days? This is what I mean by the genre being defined by the mainstream - hip hop as a musical genre definitely evolved under the public eye. Public Enemy is a perfect example of a mainstream hip hop group that did more politically conscious stuff - definitely mainstream, but chuck D definitely didnt give a fuck about cristal (most of the time). I know people were breakdancing before that though, but I'm not familiar with early bboy stuff.

I'm not knocking acts like Atmosphere or anything - I've seen them live and (atmosphere sucked, probably a circumstance of the venue more than anything), but I just think Kanye West is a great artist. Or at least, not worse than anybody else in the mainstream consciousness. I would also argue that his stuff is definitely a lot less vapid than your usual Ludacris or Usher club banger. Then again, I love that stuff too.

However, the majority of the time I'm listening to hip hop, I just wanna hear about ballers being ballers. Kinda like what I expect when I tune into SZ. I'm by no means a pure hip hop connoisseur though, so take all this with a grain of salt.

[Chinorlz]

Does anybody seriously listen to late 70s early 80s hip hop regularly these days? This is what I mean by the genre being defined by the mainstream - hip hop as a musical genre definitely evolved under the public eye. Public Enemy is a perfect example of a mainstream hip hop group that did more politically conscious stuff - definitely mainstream, but chuck D definitely didnt give a fuck about cristal (most of the time). I know people were breakdancing before that though, but I'm not familiar with early bboy stuff.

I'm not knocking acts like Atmosphere or anything - I've seen them live and (atmosphere sucked, probably a circumstance of the venue more than anything), but I just think Kanye West is a great artist. Or at least, not worse than anybody else in the mainstream consciousness. I would also argue that his stuff is definitely a lot less vapid than your usual Ludacris or Usher club banger. Then again, I love that stuff too.

However, the majority of the time I'm listening to hip hop, I just wanna hear about ballers being ballers. Kinda like what I expect when I tune into SZ. I'm by no means a pure hip hop connoisseur though, so take all this with a grain of salt.

[mass]

Does anybody seriously listen to late 70s early 80s hip hop regularly these days?

yup i do.

[Fade to Black]

lol nice post Chim, no wonder i gravitate towards SZ, it is eerily similar to my first love, hip hop.

Jay-Z is great of course, but I don't think he ever really cared about the music...unlike Kanye or a Biggie, where the music itself was the end goal, I always got the sense Jay-Z, throughout his entire body of work, had a sense of detachment. Fortunately, rapping well, very well, came easily to him, but seein him now, I get the sense it was another hustle, just another means to "bigger and better" ends unlike the other two examples mentioned above. But does not discredit him as one of the greatest and most important hip hop acts ever, still.

[BeauIXI]

I feel like madlib and MF doom are good but not great. They can hardly come up with new significant material once in their lives, let alone yearly or twice a year.

The reason that I like Kanye West is that yes he's mainstream, but he continues to be one of hip hop's innovators and he always pushes the boundaries, regardless of his popularity. Check out 808 and Heartbreak - it's a fucking R&B soul album where he (tries to) sing instead of rap. He's at the top of his game and he releases this more or less mediocre (i think some of the songs are brilliant, but some others are kinda terrible) album; who the fuck does that? The guy worked with Jon Brion for Late Registration (possibly his best album) because he liked Fiona Apple and the Eternal Sunshine soundtrack, for crissakes. I think that as far as a mainstream artist goes, you could do much worse than him. Plus he's into fashion and blogs about Aitor Throup. Who cares that he probably found out about Aitor on sites such as these? You know, we probably did too.

Not sure if I agree with this.. So Kanye made an "R&B" LP, and sang. Doesn't Pharrell sing all the time? And T-Pain? And Snoop Dogg? And is this entire album not totally reminiscent of Justin Timberlake? How new and boundary breaking is this?

As far as Madlib, he makes an entire LP every week, he created an entire jazz band based solely on him playing every instrument and layering it, he's made countless other projects in jazzier genres, he remixed and entire album from the Bluenotes vault, he's created an alter ego complete with narrative history, Quasimoto, and all of his music doesn't sound the same whatsoever. It's deep and catchy simultaneously, plus he's modest in that he considers himself DJ first, producer second and rapper third.

As far as DOOM, all one needs is to pick apart the schematic and rhyme flow of his rap to see the man's a genius. Kanye's rap doesn't even make any sense, and if it does, it's either speaking about how ballin' he is, or how regretful he is about how all he cares about is how ballin' he is. DOOM also has alter egos and has entire narratives based on them. DOOM produces his own music which can be appreciated not just as a catchy loop, but in an actual technical musical form. Similarly, J Dilla's music is very technical and jazz influenced. (DOOM also sings on Madvillain.)

It's in the details, complexities, technicalities and passion, just like in the clothing we all adore so much.

The only reason all the mainstream rappers and producers have influenced rap so much is simply by virtue of their being extremely accessible, and loudmouthed.

But that's just little ol' me.

[Chim]

Yeah, but alter egos and all that have always been kind of a hip hop gimmick. I actually think it's fresh that Kanye has always just been Kanye West.

and I agree with you that Kanye is a terrible rapper flow wise. He mostly just kind of talks over his beats about stupid shit. But I mean, it's sort of become his trademark style - and it works great for his music.

Whenever I hear MF Doom or Madlib, I just don't hear any hooks or catchiness. I can queue up an entire album of theirs and go study or something, and I appreciate the technicality and effort, but it's like seeing a Bob Ross painting for me. I appreciate the skill, I just don't get excited. However, I appreciate the explanation and definitely see how someone can truly enjoy these guys. Cheers!

[Fade to Black]

weird you describe Kanye's flow as 'talking over beats'...to me that applies more to MF Doom, whereas Kanye seems to be obsessed with the 'technicalities' of flow. Kanye once described himself as a horrible micro-manager; the song "Stronger" which sounds kinda effortless on a first listen, has now struck me as the song that I think was more painstakingly labored over than arguably any other in his catalogue. Kanye (in standard hip hop form at least) definitely sticks within the boundaries of a structured rhythmic flow more.

[Chim]

see, when I think of skilled wordplay and just lyrical superiority I would think of early Jay Z or Biggie. If you compare to that to Kanye, i dunno, I always feel like Kanye's rhymes are like the least important aspect to his music. That doesn't stop me from being a fan though =P