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  • Sombre
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 1291

    Albert, the bag is beautiful. I'm not trying to start anything, I just have a question. Aren't elephants protected from commercial use? I know people use their tusks for ivory, but I always thought that was a result of illegal poaching.
    An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

    Originally posted by BBSCCP
    I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

    Comment

    • Chinorlz
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2006
      • 6422

      Originally posted by SombreResplendence View Post
      Albert, the bag is beautiful. I'm not trying to start anything, I just have a question. Aren't elephants protected from commercial use? I know people use their tusks for ivory, but I always thought that was a result of illegal poaching.
      Fair question my friend :)

      Certain elephants are protected while other, more common ones are allowed for limited use. In some parts of Africa the preserves have too many elephants living there and they must cull some every season/year. The number is quite low as you would expect.

      These elephants do not go to waste and the local tribespeople skin and sell the skins to specialty leather sellers/tanners. Transportation of such material across country lines is fairly well regulated. My leather source is located here in the US as well and also carries python, zebra, eel, etc. He has to maintain very careful documentation of CITES amongst other forms to allow him to be a vendor for such leather.

      Even so, the availability of elephant leather in general is extremely low and thus the price of the leather is extremely high; more expensive than alligator, croc or most other exotic skins.
      www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

      Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

      Comment

      • zamb
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2006
        • 5834

        Fair Question + Fair Answer = Great dialogue and lots of learning for Zam Barrett,
        I didnt even think about this possibility, and I feel good to know that you are maintaining proper ethical standards and abiding by the law in your work.........

        Keep up the good work my friend, also, have'nt been to leather impact as yet, so thats why I havent called, might go tomorrow, so expect a call if I am there........
        “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
        .................................................. .......................


        Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

        Comment

        • comex9
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 192

          [QUOTE=Avyer;164095]Hopefully Albert doesn't mind me post pictures of my (not-so) recent purchases: (click for larger)

          Can't really do this shirt justice on a hanger...
          DSC_0004
          DSC_0005

          My one piece of jewelry: (and my notice that I need a macro lens)
          DSC_0006
          DSC_0008

          Albert, I love this ring and I wanted to find out people's advise for wedding bands...

          I like a couple of designs from Carla Caruso, George sawyer, and SHOLDT DESIGN
          claypot in brooklyn has all of them....

          Comment

          • Sombre
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1291

            Originally posted by Chinorlz View Post
            Fair question my friend :)

            Certain elephants are protected while other, more common ones are allowed for limited use. In some parts of Africa the preserves have too many elephants living there and they must cull some every season/year. The number is quite low as you would expect.

            These elephants do not go to waste and the local tribespeople skin and sell the skins to specialty leather sellers/tanners. Transportation of such material across country lines is fairly well regulated. My leather source is located here in the US as well and also carries python, zebra, eel, etc. He has to maintain very careful documentation of CITES amongst other forms to allow him to be a vendor for such leather.

            Even so, the availability of elephant leather in general is extremely low and thus the price of the leather is extremely high; more expensive than alligator, croc or most other exotic skins.
            Ah, so not all are protected. Thanks for clearing that up (and not taking it the wrong way). All the info I found was biased - some PETA-esque, and some like it was written by Teddy Roosevelt.

            I'm glad you've been able to find a supplier of such exotic skins. Will you be using elephant for the upcoming shoe collection as well?
            An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

            Originally posted by BBSCCP
            I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

            Comment

            • Chinorlz
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 6422

              The African elephant is classified under CITES Appendix II so goods can be traded across the countries that take part in CITES. This means that as long as it does not harm the survival of the species (Loxodona Africana) then limited goods can be traded... thus products from culls are made available in very limited amounts.. usually from Zimbabwe or Namibia. Even so, in many people's eyes an elephant is an elephant so I do know that it's a potentially touchy subject and material.

              In a way I wanted to get a level of dialogue going in regards to it as it brings up interesting points and discussion... especially the 60 year old elephant leather I use on some pieces. That comes from the daughter of a well known big game hunter/nature conservationist that lived in Zimbabwe and did quite a bit of good work there before passing away.

              Teddy Roosevelt was actually quite the wildlife lover. He certainly did a lot of hunting but at the same time he's responsible for a good deal of the organization in regards to National Parks and nature conservation .

              Unfortunately I probably will not be using elephant for the upcoming footwear. It's extremely expensive (would easily triple the cost versus a traditional animal skin) and sourcing is still irregular as the skins are not plentiful and demand (as niche as it may be) far outstrips the minimal supply. I plan on using some more "conventional" leathers for the footwear although of course the highest grade and some lovely treatment :)

              That being said, a special order (once the footwear production is settled) using elephant may not be out of the question, the price will just end up being unfortunately high.

              Z, look forward to that call when you roll through!!

              Thank you for the kind words Comex.
              Last edited by Chinorlz; 07-30-2009, 01:32 AM.
              www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

              Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

              Comment

              • philip nod
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2007
                • 5903

                cool shirt albert. got any fuller pics?
                One wonders where it will end, when everything has become gay.

                Comment

                • Chinorlz
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 6422

                  Originally posted by philip nod View Post
                  cool shirt albert. got any fuller pics?
                  I'll post a couple tomorrow for you P! Gotta hit the sack now since I gotta wake up in 4 hours
                  www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

                  Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

                  Comment

                  • Peasant
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 1507

                    I'm curious about the construction of the jewelry. Do you custom cast it? If so, is it Die Casting? Lost wax, etc? Or do you shape/bend pre-made pieces? It's apparent that you grind, solder and detail the pieces. Any other techniques? Oxidation or perhaps burning.

                    I have to say, I find the jewelry much more appealing than the clothes. But that's my personal aesthetic speaking. The cut/sew work looks very clean and tight. Congrats on your success.

                    Comment

                    • Sombre
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 1291

                      Originally posted by Chinorlz View Post
                      The African elephant is classified under CITES Appendix II so goods can be traded across the countries that take part in CITES. This means that as long as it does not harm the survival of the species (Loxodona Africana) then limited goods can be traded... thus products from culls are made available in very limited amounts.. usually from Zimbabwe or Namibia. Even so, in many people's eyes an elephant is an elephant so I do know that it's a potentially touchy subject and material.

                      In a way I wanted to get a level of dialogue going in regards to it as it brings up interesting points and discussion... especially the 60 year old elephant leather I use on some pieces. That comes from the daughter of a well known big game hunter/nature conservationist that lived in Zimbabwe and did quite a bit of good work there before passing away.

                      Teddy Roosevelt was actually quite the wildlife lover. He certainly did a lot of hunting but at the same time he's responsible for a good deal of the organization in regards to National Parks and nature conservation .

                      Unfortunately I probably will not be using elephant for the upcoming footwear. It's extremely expensive (would easily triple the cost versus a traditional animal skin) and sourcing is still irregular as the skins are not plentiful and demand (as niche as it may be) far outstrips the minimal supply. I plan on using some more "conventional" leathers for the footwear although of course the highest grade and some lovely treatment :)

                      That being said, a special order (once the footwear production is settled) using elephant may not be out of the question, the price will just end up being unfortunately high.

                      Z, look forward to that call when you roll through!!

                      Thank you for the kind words Comex.
                      I actually didn't know that about Teddy Roosevelt, I just thought he loved shooting. As for the elephants, while I absolutely love animals and have a huge soft spot even for ones I claim not to like, I have no problem with them being used for leather, fur, meat, or any other commercial use as long as it doesn't harm the species (as you explained) or is not cruel (so fur is the outlier on my list).

                      Concerning cruelty, I can support the efforts of some to change the way animals are killed because we know they feel pain, so the methods simply boil down to torture. However, I will not support PETA because I happen to think the organization is comprised of violent and unintelligent barbarians. In addition I don't support the end of human use of animals. It's a somewhat difficult position, as I don't see a way of supporting this cause without involving PETA or any animal-rights activists that agree with using them commercially. Also, I am practical, and I know such regulations would be costly to implement and consequently would probably only make the methods illegal, but would not stop them.

                      As far as what animals to use, I don't think that any should necessarily be off limits (assuming the aforementioned conditions are met). I think the issue for many people is the attachment of human characteristics to certain animals (cute, etc), so they equate the commercial use of said animals the same as they would the use of humans. On that note, I hear very few people claiming the use of sharks, either for food or leather, is unethical.
                      Last edited by Sombre; 07-30-2009, 10:59 PM.
                      An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

                      Originally posted by BBSCCP
                      I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

                      Comment

                      • theetruscan
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2008
                        • 2270

                        Originally posted by SombreResplendence View Post
                        I actually didn't know that about Teddy Roosevelt, I just thought he loved shooting.
                        His contributions are pretty impressive. national park service has a huge page on him. Here's another random one:
                        To perpetuate the memory and ideals of President Theodore Roosevelt for public benefit, to do good works in his spirit and to preserve and protect physical objects associated with his legacy.
                        Hobo: We all dress up. We all put on our armour before we walk out the door, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re trying to be someone else.

                        Comment

                        • Peasant
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 1507

                          Originally posted by theetruscan View Post
                          His contributions are pretty impressive.
                          Hunters are commonly very big conservationists. They're on the front line of environmental monitoring and they put a larger value on wild ground than the everyday human. Even as a vegetarian, I feel they often get a bad rap.

                          Comment

                          • Chinorlz
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 6422

                            Originally posted by Peasant View Post
                            I'm curious about the construction of the jewelry. Do you custom cast it? If so, is it Die Casting? Lost wax, etc? Or do you shape/bend pre-made pieces? It's apparent that you grind, solder and detail the pieces. Any other techniques? Oxidation or perhaps burning.

                            I have to say, I find the jewelry much more appealing than the clothes. But that's my personal aesthetic speaking. The cut/sew work looks very clean and tight. Congrats on your success.
                            The rings are currently constructed using different gauges of silver "wire". I use several types of treatments/processes on the rings... from acid washes to polishing, oxidization, hand filing, soldering, iron oxide firing etc.

                            I'm experimenting with lost wax casting and other jewelry methods at the moment.... a lot of methods will be applied to the hardware for the upcoming pieces :)

                            Thanks for the kind words!

                            P, here are a couple of shots of the very first anatomic short sleeve I constructed. The shots provided by Avyer actually do the design a better service than I have here admittedly



                            www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

                            Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

                            Comment

                            • Chinorlz
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 6422

                              Originally posted by SombreResplendence View Post
                              I actually didn't know that about Teddy Roosevelt, I just thought he loved shooting. As for the elephants, while I absolutely love animals and have a huge soft spot even for ones I claim not to like, I have no problem with them being used for leather, fur, meat, or any other commercial use as long as it doesn't harm the species (as you explained) or is not cruel (so fur is the outlier on my list).

                              Concerning cruelty, I can support the efforts of some to change the way animals are killed because we know they feel pain, so the methods simply boil down to torture. However, I will not support PETA because I happen to think the organization is comprised of violent and unintelligent barbarians. In addition I don't support the end of human use of animals. It's a somewhat difficult position, as I don't see a way of supporting this cause without involving PETA or any animal-rights activists that agree with using them commercially. Also, I am practical, and I know such regulations would be costly to implement and consequently would probably only make the methods illegal, but would not stop them.

                              As far as what animals to use, I don't think that any should necessarily be off limits (assuming the aforementioned conditions are met). I think the issue for many people is the attachment of human characteristics to certain animals (cute, etc), so they equate the commercial use of said animals the same as they would the use of humans. On that note, I hear very few people claiming the use of sharks, either for food or leather, is unethical.
                              Lovely post my man :) Good discussion and I'm in agreement with you in regards to the usage of animals for products/consumption.

                              It certainly is interesting how popular belief/social portrayal of certain species and animals can unfortunately affect opinions on their usage/abuse. Nary a person in Texas would bemoan the death of a rattlesnake but a dead chihuahua would sadden many a San Antonian!
                              www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

                              Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

                              Comment

                              • DHC
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2007
                                • 2155

                                Personally, I feel killing an animal solely for the use of its skin is horrible, whether it be a cow or an elephant. This is typically the case with poachers. Having stated this, I think its important to note that legally culled elephants in Africa are for consumption first. There is no waste of the animal from meat to organs down to the marrow of the bones (mmmm...bone marrow). This really is a beautiful thing as the elephants are used primarily for sustenance and not economic gain. The skin in this case is really a kind of secondary by-product of nurture to survival first. Does that make sense? haha...early for me yet.

                                Anyways, the leather is quite beautiful too. Many people fawn over the Collateral elephant jacket, find out its elephant and than feel bad for having touched it. I think its important for everyone to educate themselves on the topic and I really appreciate you bringing this to the discussion table Sombre. And Albert, I'm really happy to know that you are working in a responsible manner with the letter of the law and with a respect for life.

                                Edit: Again, I apologize for any incoherence.
                                Originally posted by Faust
                                fuck you, i don't have an attitude problem.

                                Sartorialoft

                                "She is very ninja, no?" ~Peter Jevnikar

                                Comment

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