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Thread: Allsaints

  1. #61
    Jin
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    Ok, I'm not trying to distort the assessment of market conditions and to uphold some sort of shadowy conspiracy theory.

    Ok, topic once again departed from it's theme.
    Sorry to everyone, who think that it's trolling)

  2. #62

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    Although I am guilty of owning a few Allsaints tee's, I thought I'd pop in to suggest that everyone watch the documentary "Last Train Home".

    Carry on.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRRRK View Post
    You don't have to buy the attempted knock-offs there. They have some stuff which would fit in Rick or Julius collections, but are no copy, just, well, "influenced". I don't want to defend their strategy. Just say that you can buy one or two things there. I prefer the mixture of expensive and cheaper clothes to head to toe baller stuff any day.
    I don't think its a matter of whether you buy the knock off or some other item, its about not wanting to support a company that is willing to blatantly steal ideas and make off of them. you are still supporting that business if you buy some "original" item there. influence is one thing, but they have copied some RO leathers almost spot on, and same has been said of a few Julius items as well some other labels. its not a secret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jin View Post
    How can you be sure that your ro item not produced by some third-world migrants on Italian/japan/American factories?
    I'm quite certain that legislation (and monitoring) is far better in these countries. what does the origin of an employee have to do with anything? we are speaking about conditions in a certain country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    Jin, I think you've heard enough "positive comments" about All Saints to know they're appreciated by lots here.
    ????
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

  4. #64
    Heirloom
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    i dont think that the all saints customer is someone who otherwise would buy the "original" designs. hating on knockoff labels seems like a waste of time and energy in my world. there are far more important things to hate. If they're making survival difficult for small niche labels I would be highly surprised. I'm one of the first (as is many people in here) to support small niche labels, but i've never found anything worth buying at all saints. However friends of mine less into fashion than me would find loads of things they like there. they'd however just laugh if i suggested to them they'd cough up the money for something from damir doma or rick owens. my point is that people in here don't like all saints because they're not the targeted customer.

  5. #65

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    Lowrey, you left the most important part of my post away. Some typos there, but still important. Of all the things we buy, a lot of stuff is copied or influenced by something else.
    Just because we are part of a fashion forum makes us blame All Saints for the exact things others are doing with furniture, technical stuff, even food, but we don't stop buying them because it's cheaper / better / cooler / more available. If i despise every knock off (which I do) and boycott the companies (which i obviously don't 100%) behind it, i would not stop with clothes.
    I am not here to defend All Saints at all. One thing though, if the Julius MA pants recommended on scoute were by All Saints, they would be called a knock-off of RO Aircuts. It's easy and correct to blame All Saints, but we should avoid double standards.

    Edit: I forgot to mention music. Bands build entire careers ripping off Joy Division or others.
    Last edited by DRRRK; 04-14-2011 at 07:49 AM.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    Lowrey, here are some of your comments in the furniture thread:(4/26/2010)
    "we have two made in china padded office chairs, 150 a pop and I don't have to look out for them as I would with the $2500 original. I don't usually support knock offs but the other option would've been some fugly generic office chairs"
    (12/18/2010)
    " I bought a crappy knock off for $100 which at least looks nice"

    I think your key phrase then is "not wanting to support a company". However, due to a monetary situation or by simply placing a smaller premium on a certain product in your life, we all do at some point...


    your argumentation is false - by quoting lowrey like that you are making an ad hominem attack on him, not disproving his point.

    and don't speak about people you don't know. i hate knock-offs with a passion and would rather go without - i don't put a dollar value on my integrity. fuck all saints. they are parasites feeding off the work of others.

  7. #67

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    i think he's probably trying to point out double standards rather than attacking someone, but probably lowrey is not even the best subject for that.

    aren't rick sneaks knock-offs of AF1s?

  8. #68

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    haha johnny dude why you always gotta throw spanners in the works...

    when i say 'ad hominem attack' that is exactly my point - chilton is pointing out lowrey's alleged "double standards" rather than disproving the logic of lowrey's point. i don't mean 'attack' as in something necessarily very nasty and vicious...

    anyway, i'd argue the difference between af1's and a pair of rick's is pretty substantial, especially considering the number of other high-tops in the 'sneaker market' sharing broadly similar characteristics... but i'd be happy to hear more about your thoughts on that since i have a personal/professional interest in the overlap between intellectual property and design issues. and if you manage to convince me i'm wrong, maybe i'll have to sell my sneaks to avoid being a big ol' hypocrit.

    maybe this discussion on fake/copied/inspired/original could fit in the 'ethics thread'? that was my idea with that thread anyway...





    and for the record - just because something is not 'top-of-line' doesn't mean it has to be a rip-off of something else.
    Last edited by Shucks; 04-14-2011 at 08:26 AM. Reason: better pic

  9. #69

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    Shucks, double standards are to avoid if one hates something with a passion. Are you aware that the iPhone once was called a copy of the LG Prada phone? For quite a long time? This may be over for some time now and looking back it was ridiculous. But at the same time i guess you didn't care.

  10. #70
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    Everybody rips off everybody. Ideas don't just appear out of thin air.

    Margiela has a whole line they manufacture that recreates vintage found pieces. This isn't copying? I've seen many of the garments and for the most part they are beautifully made out of very nice materials. They are also VERY EXPENSIVE and COPIES

    I really think All Saints shouldn't get ripped this bad as all of the large retailers that attempt to appeal to a large audience are moving with trends and take stuff they like, make a couple changes (for legal reasons) and sell it a their own.

    They their lower price points by sourcing their clothing out of countries that allow them to come over and exploit their cheap labor force.

    Please, for your own sake, do not try and compare workers in China to those in Japan and Italy. This has to do with hours, skill level, treatment and economic freedom of choice.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRRRK View Post
    Shucks, double standards are to avoid if one hates something with a passion. Are you aware that the iPhone once was called a copy of the LG Prada phone? For quite a long time? This may be over for some time now and looking back it was ridiculous. But at the same time i guess you didn't care.
    hey, i am well aware of the prada/armani/hugo boss/iphone designs and i'd say you are wrong if you say the iphone is somehowe a copy of the lg phone. what is more troubling to me is the fact that jonathan ives keeps 'referencing' dieter rams and bordering on what i think is acceptable. but so far, i chalk it up to a combination of being inspired by classic braun and having quite a narrow space for innovation of form within minimalist esthetics.

    anyway, i'm moving my comments on this type of stuff to this thread which faust just bumped.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilton0326 View Post
    Lowrey, here are some of your comments in the furniture thread:

    (4/26/2010)
    "we have two made in china padded office chairs, 150 a pop and I don't have to look out for them as I would with the $2500 original. I don't usually support knock offs but the other option would've been some fugly generic office chairs"
    (12/18/2010)
    " I bought a crappy knock off for $100 which at least looks nice"

    I think your key phrase then is "not wanting to support a company". However, due to a monetary situation or by simply placing a smaller premium on a certain product in your life, we all do at some point...
    I won't deny that I feel slightly less strongly about copying a 50 year old chair as opposed to going idea shopping at L'eclaireur to knock of your favourite designers in your next collection (and mix it up with euro trash t-shirts to make it even more offensive). The latter ranks much higher on the asshole scale.

    That said, I don't support knock offs in furniture either, which I clearly pointed out in the post you dug up. at the time I desperately needed an office chair, for the 100€ or so I had, I could've gotten one from Ikea or something from a recycling center, to which I actually went, but all the chairs there were broken and shitty. so I made what I pointed out to be an exception (and temporary solution) and bought a knock off, this is the only piece of furniture I own that is a clear fake. my intention is to replace it with a vintage original at some point in the future.

    DRRRK, I take it that you have not handled the MA trousers in person? the zipper on these is on the side, not curved across the thigh, and otherwise they have a very different feel and look to them.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

  13. #73

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    I personally think that if anything, Rick Owens stands to gain from the popularity of All Saints. It will get more people into his aesthetic by allowing them to ease into it with the watered-down version AS offers. Some will like it enough to become RO customers in the long run. The ones that don't, well, they weren't going to be his customers anyway...
    Suede is too Gucci.

  14. #74

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    thats probably true, and Heirloom is right in saying that a majority of the customers are high street shoppers, so the money is not necessarily out of the original designers pocket. but this doesn't made All Saints any less dicks (I don't mean Oven), and this is why I despise them. not necessarily because they take something away from other designers, but because they so insolently copy things to make money and have zero integrity.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

  15. #75

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    there was an intern that came to my office to pick something up. he wore this nice looking leather and i asked him if it was rick. he said it was ASS and i continued to compliment him.

    i wasn't going to put him down for it, but i understand that certain people who want certain things, spend a certain amount of money they are allowed to. ASS just fullfills that certain demographic and that's fine by me. and if there are any infringements on design, then the law is at fault for not protecting the original design. ASS is just doing what it needs to do to be profitable, just like any other business.

    i just don't think it's worth discussing really. like heirloom said, there's more pressing things to worry about.

    and drrrk, i appreciate nice things, but i clip coupons at costco like everyone else..

  16. #76
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Can I just say that I love that you are calling it ASS! I will call it that from now on. Awesome.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  17. #77
    Jin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Can I just say that I love that you are calling it ASS! I will call it that from now on. Awesome.
    Thanks) fine to see how it settled on)


    Maybe we should start the thread "what ass are you wearing today"?)

  18. #78

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    julius has almost stitch for stitch knocked off RO on several occasions and charges 4x what as does. Raf remade vandals sans swoosh for 3x as much.
    MMM made trainers that are direct knockoffs of GATS. RO makes DR, Mrtens with a zipper that apparently adds 975 to the cost. No more egregious IMO.

  19. #79

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    to me, it's pretty obvious that all this moral high ground nonsense when it comes to ASS or H&M e.t.c. is strictly biased...it is obvious

    every single product that exists today, that we consume for work or pleasure, is a "copy" of somebody else's work. Some made the argument with furniture, but the argument can extend to every single product we purchase. You name it, there's copying. I mean, I'm putting in a patio in my backyard, and there's "manufactured" stone to look like the real thing, there's stamped concrete to look like the real thing, there's blatant copying of manufacturer's brick designs. Even funnier, I just went to Walmart last night and saw the "Sam's Club" brand of nutritional shakes right next to the Slimfast brand. lol.

    Copying exists and if you really want to take the "moral highground" and be fair, then it has to extend to everything and then it would just defy logic to do so. I cannot think of a single consumable product that doesn't have a "copy" version that is cheaper and available to buy. As such, fashion should be no different (and it is not different).

    What I gather though, is people here are generally pissed when the copy merchant is appealing to the masses. I believe this is what is driving the bias. As kunk stated above, other designers blatantly rip off other designers, and while they might get some criticism for that one piece, there is no mass hate against the designer and ALL his pieces. Simply because, imo, these designers are really, really niche. So if Julius copies RO, or RO copied HL, or whatever, not really a big deal. Niche market. But when the H&Ms make a copy, it's a big deal.

    No big deal to me either way. Just like when I shop for food, or underwear, or furniture, or computers or whatever, I will try the "authentic" version and will try the "copy". If, imo, the copy is doing the job adequately, then it's all good. If there are some products that I prefer the authentic version, I stick with the authentic.

    fyi, personally, i own no ASS or H&M or whatever clothes. I just find these arguments a bit trivial but still, interesting to hear others' viewpoints.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by couturehomme View Post
    every single product that exists today, that we consume for work or pleasure, is a "copy" of somebody else's work. Some made the argument with furniture, but the argument can extend to every single product we purchase. You name it, there's copying. I mean, I'm putting in a patio in my backyard, and there's "manufactured" stone to look like the real thing, there's stamped concrete to look like the real thing, there's blatant copying of manufacturer's brick designs. Even funnier, I just went to Walmart last night and saw the "Sam's Club" brand of nutritional shakes right next to the Slimfast brand. lol.
    well that is most certainly dumbing it down. fake stones? who are they knocking off, god? Nutrition products don't have a visual or aesthetical element, so its pretty pointless to compare these.

    Copying exists and if you really want to take the "moral highground" and be fair, then it has to extend to everything and then it would just defy logic to do so. I cannot think of a single consumable product that doesn't have a "copy" version that is cheaper and available to buy. As such, fashion should be no different (and it is not different).
    Again, you can't group every imagineable product into one. there is nothing personal about how you make for example drugs, which is a huge market for alternatives. or food products, there is no design element as there is in clothing, so can we stick to discussing that?

    What I gather though, is people here are generally pissed when the copy merchant is appealing to the masses. I believe this is what is driving the bias. As kunk stated above, other designers blatantly rip off other designers, and while they might get some criticism for that one piece, there is no mass hate against the designer and ALL his pieces. Simply because, imo, these designers are really, really niche. So if Julius copies RO, or RO copied HL, or whatever, not really a big deal. Niche market. But when the H&Ms make a copy, it's a big deal.

    look, the case of some designers being influenced by others or having similar items might be valid, maybe Horikawa drew influences from Rick Owens who might've borrowed and idea from Lang or some other great designer, but these designers most certainly have a voice of their own and integrity when it comes to designing clothes. a similar item here or there over their lengthy careers most definitely doesn't change that, or would you disagree?

    This, in my book, is why its not comparable to what ASS is doing, creating a fake brand identity based on obvious influences. there isn't much authentic or original about them, and I doubt anyone on SZ would say the same about Julius, RO or most of the other labels discussed here.That is simply what highstreet labels do, and this is why many of us despise them. its not the end of the world, and as it was mentioned they are probably not taking a great deal of customers away from designers any way, but its still annoying to see it happen.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

    STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

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