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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowrey View Post
    well that is most certainly dumbing it down. fake stones? who are they knocking off, god?
    serious loling

  2. #82
    Senior Member SHYE_POSER's Avatar
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    This argument seems to be ongoing. Its high street, high street stores get inspired by what the see going on during the shows. Its just that they manage to get it on the shop floor in 6 weeks rather than 6 months. TOPSHOP,ZARA,MANGO,ASS STAINS what eva that is their business! It is what they do!
    It gets boring when the same thing gets said.
    Just because ass stains borrows from designers liked on this board does not make them any better or worse then the next high st store.
    Last edited by SHYE_POSER; 04-14-2011 at 05:26 PM.
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  3. #83

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    while there's a point in what ch is saying (copying happens, and it's generally only frowned on when it's high to low level, but looked at as "influence" in certain other cases), he probably takes it too far as lowrey has pointed out.

    By way of example, what are these things copied from?


  4. #84
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    /\ Even better, can these things be copied? No way in hell. The cool thing about Rei is that she makes such out there shit, that no one is even interested in copying it.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  5. #85

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    you might think i'm taking it too far (probably with the stones....lol), but that is how i see it...

    whether you are copying somebody's design, or copying somebody's musical style, or copying somebody's chemical formula for a product, or copying an entire product genre, you are still copying and didn't come up with the original idea. Fashion is no different than other industries.

    I just looked on all saints website and ALL of their items are not blatant rip offs. Actually, not many of them are blatant ripoffs and the items that you can say are "influenced" by other designers, I can literally say the same about a lot of other designer products.

    So, hypothetically speaking, what if all saints only has a couple items "influenced" by other designers but the rest are all "original" ideas? Would they now be acceptable?

  6. #86

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    I'm not big on playing what if this and that... But lets say that if the majority of their garments would be original and interesting, perhaps they would be an entirely different brand and maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. But thats very far fetched, because the things that they haven't knocked of are for the most part generic high street stuff. Their aesthetic ranges from abercrombie and fitch to Julius and Ann Demeulemeester, both of which they have knocked of directly. I don't know if you've been to their stores, but theres mall jeans next to hipsterish t-shirts next to julius style leather jackets next to formal wear next to old navy button ups. its a mindfuck.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

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  7. #87

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    WE MAKE AURA NOT CLOTHES
    Quote Originally Posted by philip nod View Post
    somebody should kop this. this is forever.

  8. #88
    Senior Member SHYE_POSER's Avatar
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    "Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal"
    merz: your look has all the grace of george michael at the tail end of a coke binge.

  9. #89

  10. #90

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    All Saints has no presence here in Canada, but about 10 years ago (possibly more?) they made an attempt to bring their menswear to the masses by moving into department stores with the likes of BCBG (which at the time made men's clothes).

    Frankly, they went where the money is, just like BCBG. Why waste time thinking of your own ideas when you can just use someone else's?

    The fact is, 99% of the people buying All Saints leather have no idea it's a borrowed design. At least they're selling it under their own label and not a full-on counterfeit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endersgame View Post
    there was an intern that came to my office to pick something up. he wore this nice looking leather and i asked him if it was rick. he said it was ASS and i continued to compliment him.

    i wasn't going to put him down for it, but i understand that certain people who want certain things, spend a certain amount of money they are allowed to. ASS just fullfills that certain demographic and that's fine by me. and if there are any infringements on design, then the law is at fault for not protecting the original design. ASS is just doing what it needs to do to be profitable, just like any other business.

    i just don't think it's worth discussing really. like heirloom said, there's more pressing things to worry about.

    and drrrk, i appreciate nice things, but i clip coupons at costco like everyone else..

    I suppose the law is at fault for allowing companies to exploit low wage workers in China? Reliance upon "law" is the worlds biggest cop out.

  12. #92

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    so start a crusade, picket in front of an ASS store, write to your local congressman, and do something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endersgame View Post
    so start a crusade, picket in front of an ASS store, write to your local congressman, and do something about it.
    I don't give them my business.

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    what do you think the difference between all saints and the koreans doing relatively well-made counterfit rick leathers is? do you think if the korean rip-offs were to call themselves a company instead of passing it off as "rick owens" would be more well respected? it's been established that all saints directly rips off rick/julius leathers, so what do you think the major difference between the two are besides allsaints having a name to operate under which the counterfitters still try to pass it off as rick? they're essentially doing the same thing just slightly different ways of doing it. this may be a bit reaching but at which point regarding garments do things stop becoming counterfeit and start becoming "inspired by"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by messenoire View Post
    what do you think the difference between all saints and the koreans doing relatively well-made counterfit rick leathers is? do you think if the korean rip-offs were to call themselves a company instead of passing it off as "rick owens" would be more well respected? it's been established that all saints directly rips off rick/julius leathers, so what do you think the major difference between the two are besides allsaints having a name to operate under which the counterfitters still try to pass it off as rick? they're essentially doing the same thing just slightly different ways of doing it. this may be a bit reaching but at which point regarding garments do things stop becoming counterfeit and start becoming "inspired by"?
    Rick Owens has invested a lot of time and money into branding "RICK OWENS" the label. People expect a certain quality of manufacturing and materials when they purchase Rick Owens items. Customers will not always know that they have fake items and that can cause damage to your brand.

    Trademarking and branding cost a lot of money and it costs substantial money to protect these rights. These are the costs of manufacturing and doing business. You can't just go into Italy set up a factory and start making clothing. You have to have a legitimate business and you have to have trademarks for the classes of goods you are making.

    While All Saints may take these designs and make small changes that is a far cry from the harm caused by counterfeiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
    Rick Owens has invested a lot of time and money into branding "RICK OWENS" the label. People expect a certain quality of manufacturing and materials when they purchase these items. Someone who counterfeits is actively engaging in unlawful activities and infringing upon Rick Owens Intellectual property rights.

    Trademarking and branding costs alot of money and it costs substantial money toprotect these rights.

    While All Saints may take these designs and make small changes that is a far cry from detriment caused by counterfeiting.
    while i do agree that the brand infringement is the main issue, my question is if these counterfeiters, koreans to be exact because they make a better quality item as most would agree, were to start a label under a new name and not say they were rick owens anymore but say "brand XYZ" would it change peoples perception of the operation?
    also as i've noticed a lot of all saints "little changes" have mostly been for cost efficiency so they could keep a lower pricepoint on the items. it's the same design just made within their means.

  17. #97

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    i havent seen any direct RO/Julius ripoffs from ASS, its not like Rick invented the perfecto or moto leather jacket. Sometimes i think people on this forum forget how much these high end clothes actually cost. You need to realize that most people cant afford to buy a rick owens leather jacket, and thats why brands like All Saints exist. They offer a similiar, fashionable style for 1/10 of the price, wich i think is great. There is absolutely no shame in buying a All Saints leather jacket (that is very similiar to a style from rick owens) if you cant afford the RO jacket. Shouldnt people with small budgets be able to look good too?
    Last edited by quiet noise; 04-15-2011 at 06:24 PM.

  18. #98
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    ^

    Well put and I agree 100%. I wish it wasn't at the expense of a cheap labor force but I think my microwave/Television were made in China.

    Not my stereo though!

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by couturehomme View Post
    to me, it's pretty obvious that all this moral high ground nonsense when it comes to ASS or H&M e.t.c. is strictly biased...it is obvious

    every single product that exists today, that we consume for work or pleasure, is a "copy" of somebody else's work.
    I get so sick of this point of view. It's easy to generalize but it's completely untrue. I talked about this a little bit in that ethics thread but to me, it seems like a wholly uneducated point of view in terms of knowledge of the past and present.

    "Nothing's new, everything is stolen or borrowed or a derivative...blah, blah, blah, blah."

    I usually hear that from people who steal their ideas. I don't agree with the practice and ethically, I would never do it. You cheapen the creative process with this type of thinking and you excuse the process of blatant theft in the process.

    If nobody is coming up with new/original ideas, then who the fuck is being copied? It's a ridiculous argument.

    Take the aircut jean design, for example. To my knowledge, it's never been done before in that manner. Naysayers may dig up some old parachute pant or something from the 80s whenever excessive zippers were mandatory but to my knowledge, I've never seen that design.

    Now, if ASS offered a pant, it would be a stolen idea from an original idea. "What? Pants aren't original because they all have 2 legs?" The aircut is a derivative because it has 2 legs as well? DESIGN-wise and creative-wise, it is a new idea that someone else (hypothetically in this instance) is stealing specifically for profit.

    During the original design process when Rick was creating it, it was a creative undertaking, one can assume. People still do art and design because they love it and enjoy the process but it's safe to say that anyone who knows anything about Rick's practices knows he isn't specifically in it for the money. I mean, I don't believe the guy even has PR agent. So this is something created initially as part of a vision (rick's line) and stolen/cheapened into something made solely for profits. People don't believe there is something fundamentally wrong with that?

    Well, just as a reminder, there are people in the world who don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with war, intentionally collapsing an economy or taking food from the mouths of the starving to give tax breaks to the rich. My point is that we're not exactly living in the most ethical of times. That doesn't make any of it right. People seem like they can justify anything these days as long as the end justifies the means financially. ps: I'm not comparing war to fashion...let's be honest...I'm just suggesting that the times we're in have clouded 'right' vs. 'wrong' in terms of ethics almost across the board.

    I realize now more than ever theft is tolerated and excused. The internet has made original ideas from the average person non-existent but there are still gifted artists and designers and architects and writers who are doing things that aren't simply recycled ideas. To be honest, the pursuit of that kind of originality is what drives a lot of talented creative people I know. That's the whole challenge in other words. It's rare because it's a difficult process to create something new but it's done...it's just originality isn't nearly as celebrated as much as financial success.

    Technology is one area that is interesting to me because of constant advancements. Innovation in technology and science isn't new but it does relate to the creative process.

    People who create original things drive this world in other words, people who steal ideas keep it going because there's a price to pay for innovation that a lot of people don't care to pay: (IE: Why pay for a Rick design when I can wait 2 seasons and get it from ASS?)

    Nobody is suggesting that Rick created the leather jacket. I'm proposing that the entire spectrum of Rick's line has his fingerprints and personality on it. As a whole, Rick's line is an original offering and identity of his creation. If you dissect it into pieces, you find some derivatives in there. But even creative geniuses may only hit the mark a few times in their careers.


    But why go through the arduous task of creating something original when people are so encouraged and rewarded for random theft? I talked about this too earlier...we're witnessing an era where most creation is about profits rather than personal satisfaction or fulfillment. Everything is made 'for a market'...everything is born with a price tag...specifically to be sold to some demographic or other.

    Why suffering the pains of creating something new and original when you have an audience of dolts who just want what is already popular or accepted? I imagine that being a trailblazer is a pretty lonely position to be in because a.) people aren't yet primed for new things and b.) the person who knocks off the idea and improves on it or makes it cheaper is the one who will make the money. Not the brilliant idea guy...the person that figures out a way to produce it in a shitty factory with shitty conditions and shitty wages. Those people are who collect the spoils of the innovators.

    One last point: Urban Outfitters has always been under the microscope for stealing t-shirt designs from independent designers and small companies. They have literally made millions selling this stuff to the masses and taken ideas from small time designers and taken a chunk of their profits from their idea and put it directly into the Urban Outfitters register.

    But I'm to believe that's OK because 'nothing is original/everything is a derivative?' Fuck that. Design is about creating new things from nothing. Good designers can do it...it's rare but it happens. Bad designers don't. There's a difference and that part about creating an original idea is a part of that.

    How does this relate to ASS?

    Easy. This is a question of ethics and personal scruples.

    I'm not trying to turn this into something it's not but I choose where I spend my money and a company's ethics do play a fairly big role in how I do it. That's where it begins and ends for me. I don't make a big deal of it, I simply don't spend money at businesses whose ethics and practices I find questionable or suspicious.
    Quote Originally Posted by mizzar View Post
    Sorry for being kind of a dick to you.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by messenoire View Post
    what do you think the difference between all saints and the koreans doing relatively well-made counterfit rick leathers is? do you think if the korean rip-offs were to call themselves a company instead of passing it off as "rick owens" would be more well respected? it's been established that all saints directly rips off rick/julius leathers, so what do you think the major difference between the two are besides allsaints having a name to operate under which the counterfitters still try to pass it off as rick? they're essentially doing the same thing just slightly different ways of doing it. this may be a bit reaching but at which point regarding garments do things stop becoming counterfeit and start becoming "inspired by"?
    that is the major difference.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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