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The problem of Dishonesty.

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  • theetruscan
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2008
    • 2270

    #16
    In my mind, this is essentially an intrinsic problem to any system. There will always be some tipping point with respect to risk. I guess I'd go towards three (or until I get bored) points.

    Firstly, I think I should say that we all understand the market is a "buyer beware" market (and to a lesser extent a "seller beware" market as well). The problems we see are pretty universal to buying on the internet.

    Secondly, I kinda think the thing to do is to make sure buyers know what they are getting into. For any set of restrictions, there will be some amount of scammers who get through, that's just life. There are quite a few sales facilitated by the site, and the vast majority of them go smoothly. There are a couple that don't. I think some basic common sense can fix the vast majority of things. If you're nervous there are some simple protections you can take.

    1) Make sure you see actual pictures, don't buy something otherwise.

    2) Avoid strange payment methods (western union, boxes of rocks, uncut diamonds, whatever)

    3) Use a service that gives you protection, or if very nervous or dealing with an expensive item bite the bullet and use an e-escrow service.

    4) Don't let the period to file a claim expire, ever. If you haven't seen an item in 45 days, you're not getting it. And if you do, you can apologize.

    5) Don't trade with someone you're nervous with.

    6) As a seller, GET TRACKING. Know the rules, get signature confirmation for items over $250.

    But, "what about honesty, what about stricter rules," etc etc?

    I just don't think that's going to come about. Scammers are scammers. Scammers will jump through whatever hoops they need to. Not many, but a few. If there were a simple, known set of rules that kept all scammers from bothering, we wouldn't have this issue. Some kind of threshold, be it posts, or time, or a deposit with Faust (who doesn't need the headache) will reduce the number of sellers both good and bad, but nothing will completely stop scammers from participating. Even a whitelist of tentative transactions and community reputation will be gamed occasionally. If I'm right, more strict constraints on which sellers can participate will just reduce what is sold on the market, not the trustworthiness of such.
    Hobo: We all dress up. We all put on our armour before we walk out the door, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re trying to be someone else.

    Comment

    • zamb
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2006
      • 5834

      #17
      Originally posted by ghettosalazar View Post
      what other course of action is available in this situation?

      besides simply pocketing the extra payment of course. i'm just trying to say that anyone who isn't a scammer has no choice but to take the "very noble" action here.
      Well, I see what you are saying, ut the point i am making is he didnt seek to scam anyone, the opportunity presented itself and he with great integrity did the proper thing to do.

      Some people might not seek an opportunity to scam someone, but woulds seize the chance it the situation made it possuble to do so.
      He did neither, which is the essence of integrity.

      Originally posted by the breaks View Post
      No sort of feedback system would have stopped the shit that's taken place or the shit that inevitably will.
      Well, I agree with you here, we can never eradicate thievery, but if people are educated in measures of protecting themselves it will lesson the amount of scammers that get away with that kind of stuff.
      “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
      .................................................. .......................


      Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

      Comment

      • editevening
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2008
        • 231

        #18
        great thread and glad to see it being started. I think the 100 post limit is a great idea that probably deters a lot more scammers than you think. You could argue that increasing the number from 100 to say 200 might decrease the amount of scams even more, but like others have said, scammers will do whatever it takes.

        I would suggest having a blacklist thread where real names are named, addresses and any other personal info that the community might have on the person is posted. Just banning someone's email/username doesn't do shit. If I get jacked for over a grand I want to know who it was and where they live. I may not live in the same city or even country but there is always a chance that I have some friends who do and would be willing to confront them.

        I'd also recommend Canaduh, AKA, Kavaj... great sellers.
        #nevernotalmostshopping

        Comment

        • raddy
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2008
          • 162

          #19
          IF ITS A GRAIL, TAKE THE RISK, NO?
          Looking for CCP Rain in 50, IS/MA+ loose trousers (IS S/S10!!)

          Comment

          • Bring The Noise
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2008
            • 338

            #20
            One of the other forums i post on has a user feedback section where you can leave feedback on the user...i think that'd be pretty effective

            Comment

            • theetruscan
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2008
              • 2270

              #21
              Originally posted by Bring The Noise View Post
              One of the other forums i post on has a user feedback section where you can leave feedback on the user...i think that'd be pretty effective
              This has always struck me as fairly useless.

              A new seller can still be dishonest, a poster is likely to not have a meaningful feedback record when they become able to sell, and a user who suddenly scams people is likely to have good feedback when they make that decision.

              I like feedback systems, they're fun. But, I don't really see them as an effective way to police dishonest transactions.
              Hobo: We all dress up. We all put on our armour before we walk out the door, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re trying to be someone else.

              Comment

              • Avantster
                ¤¤¤
                • Sep 2006
                • 1983

                #22
                Originally posted by theetruscan View Post
                I think some basic common sense can fix the vast majority of things. If you're nervous there are some simple protections you can take.

                1) Make sure you see actual pictures, don't buy something otherwise.

                2) Avoid strange payment methods (western union, boxes of rocks, uncut diamonds, whatever)

                3) Use a service that gives you protection, or if very nervous or dealing with an expensive item bite the bullet and use an e-escrow service.

                4) Don't let the period to file a claim expire, ever. If you haven't seen an item in 45 days, you're not getting it. And if you do, you can apologize.

                5) Don't trade with someone you're nervous with.

                6) As a seller, GET TRACKING. Know the rules, get signature confirmation for items over $250.
                Good points etruscan and Test. A consolidated list like this would do well in a sticky for first time buyers/sellers.

                A blacklist thread would also be a good idea. On that point, Faust, is there a way of I.P. banning here?
                let us raise a toast to ancient cotton, rotten voile, gloomy silk, slick carf, decayed goat, inflamed ram, sooty nelton, stifling silk, lazy sheep, bone-dry broad & skinny baffalo.

                Comment

                • Bring The Noise
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 338

                  #23
                  Originally posted by theetruscan View Post
                  This has always struck me as fairly useless.

                  A new seller can still be dishonest, a poster is likely to not have a meaningful feedback record when they become able to sell, and a user who suddenly scams people is likely to have good feedback when they make that decision.

                  I like feedback systems, they're fun. But, I don't really see them as an effective way to police dishonest transactions.
                  As in the real world there are no perfect solutions, but aside from the feedback system i really can't think of any other deterrents

                  i've sold stuff here when i had less than 100 posts before the rule came into effect and i'm glad people took a chance and bought my stuff

                  no offense to faust or anything, but if baby did scam alot of people why is he still allowed to post...shuldn't he be blacklisted and his personal info posted

                  Comment

                  • H-R
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2007
                    • 364

                    #24
                    I still feel that people will find loopholes to sell their stuff even before they reach 100 posts. For example, one could easily plug in his/her sale thread on another forum on his signature here. He/she could also simply plug in the said sale thread in between discussions in a particular thread by saying something like, "Btw, if anyone is interested bla bla bla..." after a sentence or two on a subject matter. At the same time, I feel it's rather harsh if advertising sale thread on your signature is banned because not everyone checks the classified section regularly.

                    Comment

                    • digital_d
                      Member
                      • Nov 2006
                      • 45

                      #25

                      Right on the + on their MA+
                      S = Scammer

                      Comment

                      • Brother Stasi
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2008
                        • 120

                        #26
                        I know what we can do!!! I learned while taking international business classes a while back...

                        Person A, the seller, receives an order from Person B, the buyer. Person A then sends goods to Person C, Faust, when Person C, again Faust, also receives payment sent from Person B, Person C/Faust will then send Person A's goods to Person B and Person B's Payment to Person A...

                        I feel this will be a FAR more successful solution than any feedback forum.

                        Comment

                        • KodakII
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 388

                          #27
                          Well that is an idea, but honestly, I highly doubt Faust wants to use his home, time, and energy sending and recieving packages.

                          Comment

                          • Brother Stasi
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2008
                            • 120

                            #28
                            Originally posted by KodakII View Post
                            Well that is an idea, but honestly, I highly doubt Faust wants to use his home, time, and energy sending and recieving packages.
                            but with such rampant dishonesty and thievery obviously plaguing sz-land; do we really have any other choice? It's simply something that MUST be done! I'm sure Faust will agree...

                            Comment

                            • zamb
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2006
                              • 5834

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Brother Stasi View Post
                              but with such rampant dishonesty and thievery obviously plaguing sz-land; do we really have any other choice? It's simply something that MUST be done! I'm sure Faust will agree...
                              I agree that you cant ask Faust to be the "solver" of all the problems that are happening with thievery here, as it would become too laborous and time consuming to manage all the transactions. Also, I dont think we have had alot of thievery on this forum, I have only know very few. The thread was started because it seems the scammers are moving from forum to forum, places like Superfuture and others. and if they did it elsewhere, quite likely they would do it here, so preventative measure have to be taken.
                              “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                              .................................................. .......................


                              Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                              Comment

                              • philip nod
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2007
                                • 5903

                                #30
                                Originally posted by zamb View Post
                                Yes I remember Cas, story, but I think it is a great one as he ultimately apologized and worked things out. I've never met him in person but I do consider him somewhat of a friend, so it saddened me when I heard. for some strange reason I didnt lose faith in him and he has somehow redeemed himself. I am a firm believer in forgiveness as we all make mistakes, but thats still no excuse for being dishonest in the first place............

                                I was with AKA*NYC* last week, he recieved a double payment from two persons within ten seconds for an item he was selling, he instanly returned the second payment and explained the situation to the payee. I found that to be very noble and it increased my respect for him. I just hate thieves.
                                zboss: aka, why you return duble pay?
                                One wonders where it will end, when everything has become gay.

                                Comment

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