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Thread: Raf Simons

  1. #101

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    5252 You need to understand that these are old dogs here who admired Raf in his golden age. As you already stated you didnt grow up listening to JD, same as me.
    I think that if you look the whole raf evolution going from early cuts, strong politcal and cultural references to gorillas, snakes towels; you see the downfall, you just cant deny it.
    The refernece to the subculture in past collections is now gone.
    He still pulls off some interesting things on his and Jil label that i buy on sale. But as Faust stated those are just nice pants, shirts.
    Talking about clean and geo lines you cant go wrong with contemporary raf.

    The magic is lost.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by 525252 View Post
    I would think the cultural reference was towards the archetypal (even biblical) symbolism that snakes represent.
    Forgive me if I missed the point of a joke.
    it wasn't a joke exactly; I did sense the biblical reference when I first saw it - it was unlike anything that came before in Raf's oeuvre, just at a time when his whole operation was taking a drastic turn into the Purple Label-esque suiting and all...maybe he's conflicted between the need to expand, a sort of creative and personal stagnancy and yet defiance to the growing backlash among certain niche demographics that used to live by his work that I'm sure he's aware of on some level.

    He went from Joy Division to Kanye West, basically. And I like Kanye.
    www.matthewhk.net

    let me show you a few thangs

  3. #103
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Get these motherfucking snakes off this motherfucking plane!!!
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  4. #104

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    Fade, that wasn't directed at you, I know what you meant :)

    Also, am I missing something about the "gorilla" neoprene arms? Its only here that they're being referred to as that, I mean, was it genuinely a reference to gorillas?

    It can't be denied that Raf Simons is different, but it can (and will) be denied that he's undergone "downfall". Sorry to be so persistent, but really, if gorillas and Samuel L Jackson are what is evoked in your mind when you look at SS10, then thats unfortunate for you.
    Honestly, I think Raf's current collections have more relevance to social values rather than cultural.

    And fine, we'll all bag out Raf Simons for generating money from a black towel to fund his buisness and losing all his integrity cause what he should be doing instead is generating money from clothing that not many people want to buy because only a small niche actually buy that stuff, so tut tut Raf for selling out! Give him a slap on the ass and let him go.

    No seriously, we'll talk about the towel if it ever appears on the runway.

  5. #105

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    Well, the piss is pretty great.
    Here's a paper doll I made in honor of this thread.


  6. #106

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    even the paper doll looks sad having to wear that.
    "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

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  7. #107

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    he's sad cause he has no pants!

  8. #108
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowrey View Post
    even the paper doll looks sad having to wear that.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  9. #109

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    that paper doll is pretty good, no joke (looks a bit like me actually). Nice work Fitty.
    www.matthewhk.net

    let me show you a few thangs

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by 525252 View Post
    It can't be denied that Raf Simons is different, but it can (and will) be denied that he's undergone "downfall".

    Honestly, I think Raf's current collections have more relevance to social values rather than cultural.
    We're entitled to our opinions, but you can't make statements like these without knowing the history of his work. Take a look at his curriculum and then make your argument.

    Raf's old website

    F/W 01.02

    S/S 02 more pics

    F/W 02.03

    S/S 03

    F/W 03.04 more pics video

    S/S 04

    F/W 04.05 video

    S/S 05 more pics

    F/W 05

    S/S 06

    F/W 06

  11. #111
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Thanks, slalom! A worthy addition to this thread.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by slalom View Post
    We're entitled to our opinions, but you can't make statements like these without knowing the history of his work. Take a look at his curriculum and then make your argument.
    This isn't a matter of "if you thought that was good, wait till you see this".

    I've seen his older collections and read about them and so on. I've looked through this entire thread.
    I just don't think I'll ever get a substantial understanding of them, let alone have enough of that to make a critical conclusion because I feel I don't know enough about the context which all his "statements" were made. At the time of those older works I was/am much too culturally detached from that area to gain any sort of appreciation for it. This is what I meant by the "social relevance" of his work.
    I think the ideas are now more universal. (thats a statement I'm slightly apprehensive to make. But nonetheless..) With the snakes, they are an archetypal symbol and their "meaning" is sensed even instinctively. Ideas of masculinity is also something that is explored universally. I don't think its "dumbing down" or communication to the lowest common denominator, they're just ideas that are relevant to everyone.

    But that list is really great, and I'll definitely be looking through them!!

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by CHRIS View Post
    if someone told me to start wearing something just because they figured it would suit me better i'd tell them to eat my ass with a .925 spoon

  14. #114
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    /\ Thanks for bringing this blog posts in.

    This explanation by Raf is such bullshit though:

    "“I don’t like the way they [the recent collections] are being dismissed as “commercial” or that I am consciously designing for “old men.” What’s wrong with including older people as well?... I don’t like to think that an audience feels as if I am abandoning them. I am not: these formal elements have always been in my work, always. I wish people would really look into the history. Also to dress like this when you are young – and I am showing these clothes on young guys – for me feels more subversive now.”

    It's not about age, it's about the state of mind. It can be argued that Yohji designs for "old people" too, but his stuff is far from conventional, which is what Raf's stuff has become . And to give this postmodern hipster excuse, "Oh, it's subversive when I do it," is such a cop-out. I suppose Franz Ferdinand and its ilk are SOOO subversive!!!

    It is true that formal elements were always there, but they were not overwhelming. The entire point is that those suit jackets and coats were incorporated into a young man's wardrobe of bombers and knits - which is exactly what made them subversive - they weren't the whole thing thinly veiled by some superfluous design elements.

    It's fine to say, "I have grown up." But growing up does not mean that you automatically start wearing a suit. That is so FUCKING DEPRESSING. Rick is a grown up, Ann is a grown up, but they have retained their own sense of what a man's wardrobe can look like, an alternative to the conventionality of menswear.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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  15. #115

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    This is taken from that Hapsical blog post:

    "The irony, of course, is that we all got in a fuss about Simons apparently abandoning his ‘edgy’ ‘alternative’ look, but that look is now so heavily ingrained in the mainstream thanks to his great influence on menswear (look no further than Topman for evidence), that putting his young men in something traditional and conservative (especially, we might note, at the height of the banking crisis), that goes right against what we currently accept as being ‘cool’, was really just another clever way of breaking away from the mainstream and doing something subversive, albeit in a way that was harder to recognise than before."

    "Oh, it's subversive when I do it,"
    But basically what you are saying is "oh, its subversive and not superfluous when I think its subversive and not superfluous"

    I don't know if you've seen what the "conventionality of menswear" looks like recently, (being so isolated in your own very well dressed world, you!) but "bombers and knits" are quite a large part of it. Its ironic, but thats the way the trickle-down works. Its also probably a large part of why some (a very very small portion) of his earlier work doesn't resonate with me, because it instantly reminds me of the mass produced crap I was familiar with, which he ironically influenced. So fashion is kinda funny like that. Fashion is superfluous. A utilitarian world doesn't need fashon.

  16. #116
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 525252 View Post


    1. But basically what you are saying is "oh, its subversive and not superfluous when I think its subversive and not superfluous"

    2. I don't know if you've seen what the "conventionality of menswear" looks like recently, (being so isolated in your own very well dressed world, you!) but "bombers and knits" are quite a large part of it. Its ironic, but thats the way the trickle-down works. Its also probably a large part of why some (a very very small portion) of his earlier work doesn't resonate with me, because it instantly reminds me of the mass produced crap I was familiar with, which he ironically influenced. So fashion is kinda funny like that.

    3. Fashion is superfluous. A utilitarian world doesn't need fashon
    .
    1. Listen, style rookie. I speak from first-hand experience that spans a good dozen years already. I have seen and grown with Raf's work. You, as you say yourself, are just wetting your feet. But if you want to reduce your argument to "this is just your opinion," we can simply stop right here, because there is no reason to continue this discussion.

    2. LOL. I have lived in New York for the past 18 years. I have seen the styles and neighborhoods change with my own eyes.

    3. Thank you for this profound insight. Who knew?!
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

  17. #117

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    When the routine bites hard
    And ambitions are low
    And the resentment rides high
    But emotions won't grow
    And we'rechanging our ways
    Taking different roads.
    Raf, raf will tear us apart again.

  18. #118

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    arrgh I just wrote up a reply and then the browser just screwed up. I can't be bothered to rewrite everything but to sum it all up:

    1 If you met the guy, you most likely would not be screaming "bullshit" at his face. You would most likely have a nice long discussion about why he did what, you'd probably get along quite nicely and when its time to leave you'd probably give him a hug and you'd be good friends foreverrrrr.

    2 I didn't point out how young and naive I am with the intent to invalidate every thing I say, but to show that I'm coming from a very different perspective. I ended up looking like a precocious brat so I don't think anything I say will have much of an impact on this discussion. I'll leave you to pine about how Raf isn't the same anymore.

    3 and Faust, I already could tell that you have experience and you're from a place like NY but frankly, it doesn't really matter.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by 525252 View Post
    1 If you met the guy, you most likely would not be screaming "bullshit" at his face. You would most likely have a nice long discussion about why he did what, you'd probably get along quite nicely and when its time to leave you'd probably give him a hug and you'd be good friends foreverrrrr.
    Please stop.

  20. #120
    kitsch killer Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 525252 View Post
    1 If you met the guy, you most likely would not be screaming "bullshit" at his face. You would most likely have a nice long discussion about why he did what, you'd probably get along quite nicely and when its time to leave you'd probably give him a hug and you'd be good friends foreverrrrr.
    Oh, I've tried. But my interview requests have been denied. You see, Raf is now protected by a big bad PR company that only lets him talk to the likes of GQ.

    Anyway, no hard feelings - but understand, the moment you say "that's just your opinion," you are effectively closing the door on any discussion. Yes, it may be my opinion, but it's an informed one.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

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