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  • zamb
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 5834

    thanks maestro

    I just read it all............now you owe me 20 minutes

    see you soon my friend, see you soon!
    “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
    .................................................. .......................


    Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

    Comment

    • Johnny
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2006
      • 1923

      speaking of 99%/1% etc., a question. what are the 99% of people who can't afford GBS, or other handmade artisanal very expensive clothing, supposed to do to get their clothes? are they morally culpable for buying clothes from "destructive" companies?

      Comment

      • zamb
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2006
        • 5834

        Originally posted by Johnny View Post
        speaking of 99%/1% etc., a question. what are the 99% of people who can't afford GBS, or other handmade artisanal very expensive clothing, supposed to do to get their clothes? are they morally culpable for buying clothes from "destructive" companies?
        I think this is a different discussion for another time, and i'm not saying it doesn't relate because the article is about that
        I do believe there is a place for cheaper non Artsanal clothing, as H&M and such offers a chance for people of low budget to look well at a price that is affordable..........the problem is when these companies become too much the main providers of clothing for people of all backgrounds regardless of thier budget, the waste and excess that's created is indeed a problem, also the exploitation of people with wagings that arent reasonable for the amount of work involved in production of these products

        I don't want to discuss to much of my own work in this thread, as its about Geoffrey's, but someone like myself, does provide artisanal clothing at a less expensive price that a lot of other designers........that being said it isn't cheap, but buying what you really need, rather than a whole bunch of cheap stuff is always a better option.......
        “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
        .................................................. .......................


        Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

        Comment

        • Faust
          kitsch killer
          • Sep 2006
          • 37852

          Originally posted by Johnny View Post
          speaking of 99%/1% etc., a question. what are the 99% of people who can't afford GBS, or other handmade artisanal very expensive clothing, supposed to do to get their clothes? are they morally culpable for buying clothes from "destructive" companies?
          It is a very good question and worth pondering indeed. I oscillate on the subject. As Zam notes, ostensibly, the purpose of H&M is indeed to provide the poor with decent clothing. Only that's not what H&M does at all - most of its business is feeding rampant consumerism, giving the ability to people to indulge into guilt-free weekly shopping trips. Because they buy the clothes so cheaply, there is no awareness of the clothes as an object to be regarded. Also, the current pricing model of the clothes is fairly recent, from a historical perspective. It wasn't so long ago that a coat would cost an average person a month's salary. But it'd be a coat that was well made and one that you would cherish, care for, one that you would fix.

          Do you know what Dries van Noten's grandfather used to do for a living? He was the type of a tailor to whom people would bring their worn out suits. He would take the suit apart, turn the fabric inside out and put the suit back together, so it would look new again. Talk about sustainability - that's the kind of stuff we need to return to. So, yeah, I am all for expensive quality clothes. As Tomas Maier said, "Just have less."
          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

          Comment

          • cowsareforeating
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2011
            • 1032

            ^ might have to post your words somewhere hope you don't mind. really echoes my sentiments and articulates better than i could've hoped.

            commercialization ugh... seems to be the root of most all economic problems right now including the attitude towards spending that most americans have

            Comment

            • Faust
              kitsch killer
              • Sep 2006
              • 37852

              I don't mind. Faustian wisdom for all! :-)
              Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

              StyleZeitgeist Magazine

              Comment

              • michael_kard
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2010
                • 2152

                Originally posted by Faust View Post
                As Tomas Maier said, "Just have less."
                Faust quotes Tomas Maier!!! OMG. j/k

                I've heard this opinion about H&M and consumerism quite a few times, however most of the people I know who go to H&M buy clothes because they look decent and are cheap. None of them buy new clothes every week, in fact they don't seem to be interested in buying new clothes at all, and buy new ones when they need them. I'm by no means saying it's always like that, but fashionistas who buy the latest high street copies are a very small segment of any high street's store clientelle - most people just don't give a fuck and want cheap clothes to wear.
                ENDYMA / Archival fashion & Consignment
                Helmut Lang 1986-2005 | Ann Demeulemeester | Raf Simons | Burberry Prorsum | and more...

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                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37852

                  I don't know, that's now what I see in New York.

                  And yes, lol. Only The New Yorker can make me read an article about Tomas Maier! It was good, actually.
                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • Geoffrey B. Small
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2007
                    • 618

                    Thank you all for your comments. It's great to see some thoughts on this subject.

                    I think Faust is right. What is going on in New York is for sure also going on in the UK (see what I have to say below) and all over the world. For Johnny, your points ring big-time and they are excellent. Sure, we currently sell to the 1%. But I do believe, and in fact I know, that the 1% are not all the same in their outlook and attitudes towards where we are and where we are going. In fact, we view our role as an important one- that can actually inspire, inform and influence an enlightened portion of the 1% to act, invest and assist in bringing about changes to the discussion and in their own individual spheres of influence (which can be quite large) that are clearly necessary to resolve the many many problems that are facing this system that is so failing us now.

                    In fact, we believe that about 80-90 percent of the 1% actually agree with most of the 99%, and they too can put pressure on the super-minority that is benefitting (greatly) from the suffering, sacrifice and yes, work, of many others. I stress here, I am not a socialist or a communist, I am a capitalist. I am an entrepreneur who has run his own company for almost 30 years, started from scratch in an attic, and able today to do things that long ago were just a dream. So I believe in a free market and private property, but what we are dealing with today is neither--we are dealing with an oligarchy that is now very globalized, and a form of capitalism that is being rigged only for the very largest players. It is not free and to me it is not capitalism in its true and honest form. And it is de-stabilizing everything economically and socially, for the benefit of a minority of business interests, at the expense of all other business interests and the economy in general. As a business owner, I have my own interests. And frankly, my business would be much better off if the 99% were back on their feet and doing well for themselves too. And that is true for about 99 percent of the rest of the companies trying to work in this economy now as well, especially in retail, fashion, textiles and dry goods in general. And with over 1 billion people around the world involved in those industries, that's a lot of people.

                    Now let's look at Johnny's points. These are things we have thought through a lot, and they go at the core of our company and artistic mission. Again, yes we sell to the 1% now. We have to. Since 9/11 there has been less and less choice for designers, especially independent ones at our level to do otherwise. And with over 30 years of experience, we found ourselves uniquely positioned and capable to meet the requirements of this market in a way that few others could match. Our goal has been to set a new standard and model in the way the designer clothing approach should work. And we wanted to do this at the very top world levels because of the influence it might have and because we knew we could and few others, even if they had the dream to do so, would not have had the resources, experience, contacts and position in the industry to pull it off.

                    And like Dries' father, I am a tailor. And for a good 15 years of my early career in Boston, I made clothes for people and repaired them, and I know this work very well. Done right, it can provide a living, great satisfaction, and help a ton of people around you. Indeed, it lies at the very heart of our success so far. The great Cristobal Balenciaga, made clothes for his local townspeople in Spain at a special local price they could afford. We just donated 52 cold-weather pieces to Occupy Boston and continue to provide alterations services to people if they need it in our local town. And like the late Enzo Ferrari, I also have no intention of creating a mass-produced brand to permeate the market with my ideas. I can build the Ferraris of the industry. But I cannot build the Fiats. So, the solution for the 99% is very clear to me, and I explain it as follows....

                    It's called community self-help and "the return of the tailor to his/her former station in society" at the local community level. There was a time when the tailor was a very highly respected, well paid and valuable member of the community in which he/she served. We need in the world, and I hope to set an example, to teach and inspire, a new generation of practicing tailors--at least one in every community, that is competent enough to serve their community to develop, maintain and improve the clothing needs at the very best service/cost/benefit/long-term value relationship. Localized, Zero-km, personal, sustainable, trust-based community service, like the old-time doctor who knew his patients and made his housecalls and took care of the people in his community, earned his living from them, and put his earnings right back into his community with his purchases as well. I believe Zam is a perfect example of this, and a great one.

                    But we need a lot more.

                    And there is a lot of work to do, because one of the greatest costs of the current system is the total degradation and stripping out of education, training and skill sets of people, as companies managed by people who do not know how to make anything and do not respect what it takes to do it (believe me, I know these people-I went to business school with many of them) continuously refuse to invest in human beings and what they can do. Why? Because they view people as an expense instead of an asset. A cost instead of an investment. They were taught in business school like I was to de-skill everything as much as possible to lower costs. And there lies the heart of the problem. Making clothes is a labor intensive task. If you devalue and "de-skill" the human component, labor, the short-term cost of the article comes down. But so too does the value of the human being. Make no mistake about it, when you buy a 19.99 dollar item from a global corporation like H&M, you are participating in the devaluation of the people who had to make that piece as well as yourself. And since 1979, I have been on a personal mission to fight that tendency and prove that great clothes made by serious human beings should be valued far higher in their community and society than they are being held today.

                    The tragedy to answer Johnny's points, is that people are morally culpable to a point, but what is really going on is that they are victims of a system that is leaving them with very little choice. Like a heroine dealer, the systematic de-skilling of mass populations is steadily making people poorer and poorer, and then more and more dependent upon giving their money to a solution which continues to make them more destitute and more dependent. This system is also being mirrored in the financial credit and banking industry with similar results.

                    But there are still real solutions for people who are serious about getting out of the dependency:

                    - Instead of de-skiling, re-skill, learn how to repair and even make your own stuff. Not only will you begin to save money, get what you want and need…but you will develop a skill that can begin to help earn a living helping others by repairing and making their clothes too. Don't laugh, that's why I am still in the game I am in, while many of my ex-competitors and colleagues are gone. I can sew and they cannot. Believe me, it's useful and it's worth money to you.

                    - for God's sake, buy good used clothing (there is still no better value for money and environment and in the cases of Salvation Army, Goodwill Industries and others- for people in need, anywhere). 9 times out of 10 you will find better made, better fabric and better value than anything you can buy from a cheap fashion retailer today. It's no joke why Rei Kawakubo copied homeless people for CDG ideas and collections for years…if you have to live on the street, you cannot f__ around with your clothes. Your clothes are your house. And smart homeless people know how to find and pick the best possible clothes to keep them alive in the streets. You can do the same, and it's good enough for some of the best designers in the world to knock-off.

                    - check out the growing number of tiny DIY startups and craftspeople on Etsy.com many are serious young entrepreneurs, want to offer a lot of service to the customer and offer relatively low prices. There may even be one or two right near you. Support a craftsperson starting out and who knows, it may turn out to be a very rewarding experience and collaboration in more ways than one. Certainly much more than continuing to feed the slavery trade monster that is trying to put that very same local craftsperson in your town out on the street and you on a perpetual mountain of credit card debt for nothing.

                    - and practice the mantra of the sustainable movement "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" and save your money to buy one serious piece of clothing that will serve you well and last you a lifetime. Not all of my customers are the 1%. Many of them have clothes they still use today that I made for them over 25 years ago. And they still look cool as hell too. Think about it, you pay once, but you get two and half decades of wear looking and feeling really good. And maybe a lot more. Like a job, or a promotion, a big sale, or even a spouse wearing those clothes that were built to last you a lifetime and be the very best that they coudl be. That's value. And that is also the cheapest in price in the long run, bar none.

                    It's very much the old fashioned way. Like Faust was talking about with Dries' father. Practiced by people who survived world wars and great depressions. And that's what people need to learn once again today. (continued next post…)




                    .

                    Comment

                    • Geoffrey B. Small
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 618

                      (continued from previous post…)

                      thank you Merz, it's great to hear from you too. And I will heartily challenge Micheal Kard's comments above with the perceived alternative. I don't believe for a minute that those clothes look decent nor are they cheap. They are really expensive in more ways than one. And anybody that knows can see them from a mile away. One is only fooling oneself when one gives the heroine dealer his money. "You are an addict. You are hooked on a substance which is killing you. And you are paying to do it." And when it comes to H&M, Zara, Target and the rest, just like a junkie's eyes and face, the clothes will give you away to anyone who knows what to look for. They will know that this is a person who is truly poor, in knowledge not money (the last thing you would want to have to wear if you were homeless in NYC is H&M believe me, you would be dead after 1 winter night) ...but a person who has no recourse or knowledge other than to throw away money that he/she doesn't have. Like a drug-addict, a compulsive gambler at the table, or an alcoholic on his/her last legs, one can only look and say little. When looking for a job, or trying to climb in higher circles, eyebrows will be raised further under scrutiny for the very same reasons. Far better to wear some good quality, durable clothes from the Salvation Army even with no style and show you understand clothes, thrift and value, than expose oneself as knowing only waste, frivolity, superficiality and the corporate slavery way of life dictated to you by its TV and media. One should consider carefully, that when you don't give a f…, maybe it shows. And that too, can have its price. Let's look at the UK shall we…?


                      In the UK alone people throw away over 2 MILLION TONS of fast fashion a A YEAR now.

                      The average number of wears is about 6. And more importantly, they are a symbol of supporting and funding slavery around the world, all of them produced by people on average who are receiving less than 2 US dollars or 1,5p a day and living in perpetual poverty and enslavement in a system that will not create new customers for western exports and has taken away hundreds of millions of needed textile and clothes-making jobs from western industrialized countries in the past 20 years.

                      You want to finance and support this? Go ahead, but don't kid yourself.

                      if the hard fact is "most people just don't give a f__k and want cheap clothes to wear"… then they are only f___ing themselves. If you ever tried to make yourself a piece of useable clothing you would begin to understand that there is no such thing as cheap clothes. I have been making clothes all of my life in both tiny and enormous quantities, and I can tell you that clothes take an unbelievable amount of time and skill to create. And someone has to pay for it somewhere. If the end-line customer doesn't pay for it, and the company with the label on it or its retailer doesn't pay for it, then the person who made it has to pay for it- by working for nothing. And that is what all those people buying that destructive junk are supporting. And it is also what I have spent my whole life fighting. And the fact that all the slave labor in cheap fashion is then also being wasted on petrochemical plastic-based polyester fabrics which create a myriad of other damaging effects on human beings and the environment makes it all the more self-destructive for all of us.

                      I believe strongly that they would be all much better off if they paid more to someone who was in their local community, and kept the money in the community where it would come back to them in a myriad of ways, and as a result- their own job or business prospects would be infinitely greater, than a system which is stripping both the money, the jobs and the businesses out of their community like a vacuum hose. I base this on my experience of living and working both in America and in Europe over the past 35 years and seeing the devastation happen on both sides of the Atlantic.

                      As further evidence and testimony I urge you all to carefully review and reflect on all of the entries below. Starting with this important story on where all that UK fast fashion shopping is taking us….

                      Fast fashion from UK to Uganda
                      From the catwalks of London to the rubbish heaps of Kampala the impact of fast fashion is wide and deep. And if the trend continues, the West's wardrobes will be feeding landfill tips around the world for many years to come.

                      The dirty pile of clothes lies nestled in a heap of hypodermic needles, empty water bottles and mangled cardboard.
                      Prising a black blouse from the rest of the mix reveals a popular British brand name on the collar. It would be an unremarkable sight on any rubbish tip in Britain, but instead of being surrounded by seagulls, giant Marabou storks are picking their way over the hills of waste. Welcome to one of Uganda's largest landfill dumps, an artificial hill built by some of the 1,500 tonnes of rubbish thrown away by the inhabitants of the capital city Kampala every day. To find British High Street brands among all this is not only a sign of the impact of globalisation but also a symptom of the UK's growing addiction to throwaway fashion...

                      BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service



                      Fashion's environmental impact
                      The government has launched a campaign to tackle the environmental impact of a "fast fashion" culture in a bid to make the industry more sustainable from production to disposal of garments...

                      BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service



                      And what people are getting paid to make your stuff...


                      STRIKE HITS NIKE VIETNAM FACTORY
                      The average monthly salary at the Taiwanese-owned plant is about $59...
                      BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service



                      AND WHY THEY HAVE TO STRIKE...
                      The following report was provided by Thuyen Nguyen, of Vietnam Labor Watch, who recently returned from a 16-day fact-finding tour of Nike factories in Vietnam. This report begins with Nguyen's statement at a 3-27-97 press conference and then goes on to highlights of his findings...



                      Is Primark really ethical? Garment workers tell their story
                      In response to media reports of terrible conditions in their supplier factories Primark launched their "Ethical Primark" website, aimed at reassuring their consumers that they are an ethical company. When Shuma Sakar, a Bangladesh worker producing Primark clothes, and Shahida Begum from the the National Garment Workers Federation in Bangladesh came to visit Labour Behind the Label in the UK we asked them what they thought of Primark's claims-this is their response......
                      In response to media reports of terrible conditions in their supplier factories Primark launched their "Ethical Primark" website, aimed at reassuring their c...

                      Since Primark opened its doors in Britain, thrifty fashionistas have been snapping up bargains. But the low-cost clothes come at a high price for children in Indian sweatshops.



                      How about some English kids who went over and found out what it's like for themselves?
                      This is great, you should see and listen to what they went through, and they're the lucky ones, they got to go home to the UK after a few weeks….

                      NEWSNIGHT SPECIAL ON BLOOD, SWEAT AND T-SHIRTS
                      Newsnight special with interviews with two of the people that took part in the television series blood, sweat and t-shirts.

                      Newsnight special with interviews with two of the people that took part in the television series blood, sweat and t-shirts.




                      HowStuffWorks has been explaining how things work to curious minds since 1998. Providing factual, unbiased content that's fun to read and makes difficult topics easy to understand.



                      AND EVEN JUST IN TODAY'S NEWS….
                      Cambodian Workers for U.S. Brands Stage Strike

                      Workers at a Cambodian garment factory that produces clothing for major U.S. retailers have gone on strike over the suspension of their union representatives. The Workers Friendship Union Federation says the strike will continue until the three union representatives are re-instated. The factory produces garments for U.S. brands Gap, JC Penny and Old Navy.
                      Police Raid Occupy Encampments in Los Angeles, Philadelphia; Defying Veto Threat, Senate Advances Indefinite Detention Measure; Up to 2 Million Workers Strike in Britain; Former Ivory Coast Leader Charged with Crimes Against Humanity at The Hague; U.S. Questioned on Egypt Tear Gas Shipments; Clinton Arrives in Burma for Landmark Visit; Pakistan Boycotts NATO Conference in Protest of Deadly Raid; Britain Withdraws Diplomatic Staff from Iran After Embassy Incident; Anti-Crime Activist Slain in Mexico; WMO: 2011 One of Hottest Years on Record; Ex-U.S. Navy Officer Indicted for 1973 Deaths of U.S. Citizens in Chile; Cambodian Workers for U.S. Brands Stage Strike; Michigan Appoints Emergency Manager for Flint; New York City Council Votes to Sue Bloomberg over Homeless Rules; Perry Gets Voting Age, Date Wrong; Picks Up Endorsement from Arizona Sheriff Arpaio



                      This is where your money goes when you buy from these companies.
                      Think about it. There are a lot of alternatives. All of them, for me, far more elegant, cool, less-expensive, and respectable than supporting this.

                      Thanks for your consideration.

                      Best wishes, Geoffrey



                      .

                      Comment

                      • Johnny
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 1923

                        GBS thanks, great post(s), much to ponder. Which I will and will hopefully respond to. One comment for the moment is that I don't agree with Merz, although this is perhaps more how to do with how I receive information than as to the substance of that point. Perhaps. But a beautifully made garment, hand finished, hand-sewn, made from the finest, rarest fabric, is not just that. It is also hugely expensive and sold in a handful of stores in the world that 99% of the 1% (never mind the 99%) will even visit. If the maker of those clothes wants also to take a political stand, as GBS does, then I think it requires some independent, not just intrinsic, justification.

                        Comment

                        • lowrey
                          ventiundici
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 8383

                          Originally posted by michael_kard View Post
                          I've heard this opinion about H&M and consumerism quite a few times, however most of the people I know who go to H&M buy clothes because they look decent and are cheap. None of them buy new clothes every week, in fact they don't seem to be interested in buying new clothes at all, and buy new ones when they need them. I'm by no means saying it's always like that, but fashionistas who buy the latest high street copies are a very small segment of any high street's store clientelle - most people just don't give a fuck and want cheap clothes to wear.
                          Maybe you should look into this a bit before making inane assumptions like this.

                          Theres been research on how much British women throw away unworn clothing each year, I don't remember the exact amount but it was just appalling. 1 out of every 10 clothes was never used. The total amount of clothes thrown away was something like a million tonnes in a year - thrown into the trash instead of being reused or donated. I don't even want to imagine what the numbers for the US are. Another example; just a couple of years ago, H&M was caught destroying and throwing out brand new unsold clothes in the US. they stopped after the media caught on, but this had been standard practice for them. This is the type of lunatic behaviour which is fed by fast food fashion.

                          edit: started typing the reply before Geoffrey had replied. There is a lot more detailed information in his post.
                          "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

                          STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

                          Comment

                          • michael_kard
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 2152

                            There's nothing INANE about referring to what I've personally witnessed. Seems like "inane" is your favorite word.

                            And no, I don't think it's the same everywhere. NY and London are two very big cities where a lot of extremes can be witnessed. Members of my family, my friends, my classmates at uni, they have all bought clothes from H&M in the past and they wear it to death. I have a t-shirt that I was given 3 years ago and it's still very much wearable. I don't know who those people who throw 30+ kilos of clothing a year are. (according to GBS and BBC's info that's roughly the average per person if you divide UK population/2 million tons.)

                            Anyway, I'm by no means saying that fast fashion is a good thing, and to an extent I'm aware of its dynamics and personally I've chosen not to support it. But that's not what was being discussed.
                            All I wrote was that there ARE people who simply buy clothes from H&M because they look good to them, are affordable to them, and they haven't considered or don't want to buy used clothing. In other words most people out there. Not everyone throws away clothes every week.
                            ENDYMA / Archival fashion & Consignment
                            Helmut Lang 1986-2005 | Ann Demeulemeester | Raf Simons | Burberry Prorsum | and more...

                            Comment

                            • lowrey
                              ventiundici
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 8383

                              Originally posted by michael_kard View Post
                              There's nothing INANE about referring to what I've personally witnessed.
                              you said "but fashionistas who buy the latest high street copies are a very small segment of any high street's store clientelle" - this doesn't sound like a personal observation but an assumption. What actually is an inconsequential segment here is your friends, who you seem to be basing your entire viewpoint on. that is the part that is inane.

                              All I wrote was that there ARE people who simply buy clothes from H&M because they look good to them, are affordable to them, and they haven't considered or don't want to buy used clothing.
                              actually, you said fast fashion spenders are a small segment and that "most people" just want cheap clothes.
                              "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

                              STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

                              Comment

                              • michael_kard
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2010
                                • 2152

                                You're right on both counts. I clearly need to look into this more.

                                Anyhow, it's very hard for me to imagine who all those who throw away enough clothes to make the average for the UK 31 kilos per person are. Seriously, 30 kg? That's like 10 coats worth of clothing a year.
                                ENDYMA / Archival fashion & Consignment
                                Helmut Lang 1986-2005 | Ann Demeulemeester | Raf Simons | Burberry Prorsum | and more...

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