Designer Greatness and Generational Debate

[Faust]

I'd say he took off in 04-05. Before that, lots of polyester and nylon. Total fail.

[Sombre]

I didn't have time to contribute previously, so now I'd like to (I hope I remember what I was going to say.)

In response to reborn's quote of Waters, I agree with Faust and galia and I have to say that the effort of shock value on a designer's part only elicits disgust from me because such effort communicates lack of innovation and is a cheap way to generate buzz. To paraphrase one of our members (I'm sorry, I've forgotten who) it's the equivalent of someone who screams for the floor, then once he has it forgets what he has to say.

Casem, thanks for that blog post you provided. In general I'd agree with it because I've seen glimpses firsthand of both the creative and financial aspects of art, but there are notable exceptions. Take Dior Homme under Slimane. It was a commercial success, but still conceptually significant. Admittedly, such exceptions are rare.

Let's kick it! What makes one a great designer? Who are the greats? Can we have greatness today, or will fashion mimic contemporary art world (is this even a fair question, or should we keep the two separate)? If not, how has the fashion world changed?

-------------------

Show me a great designer of this generation. Maybe it's no longer possible to be great and you could be just good. But the above "fashion" is bandwagoneering tripe.

First, I think what constitutes greatness is the ability of a creator, through his work, to seamlessly cross boundaries from the philosophical to the practical without abandoning even an iota of that philosophy, but while simultaneously communicating said philosophy to people unconcerned with the matter at large (the "masses"). I apologize for the verbose definition.)

I think it is unfair to discredit an entire generation of designers with a declaration of comprehensive lack of greatness. Greatness is, after all, a comparative term, so at the very least one can be great in comparison to others from the same generation. Therefore I feel there is greatness today.

Designers I would call great from this generation (rose to fame/success in the 21st century):
Hedi Slimane (for re-contextualising contemporary men's fashion)

Carol Christian Poell

Maurizio Altieri

Rick Owens (although there seems to be some self-belittling at times, his philosophy is still clear in his collections, and he has reached both a niche popularity and a general one - to the extent that people in Bumfuck, Nowhere know who he is).

[christianef]

I'm not sure about Slimane. He influenced menswear for men, but his own influences and end product were often less than desirable.

now that this forum has what like 10 affiliate boutiques all offering a similar viewpoint/aesthetic boredom is likely to ensue and only a few names will have the balloons to survive. im belgian so maybe i am biased but ann demeulemeester is the most noteworthy. she has all the right components; Belgian, she herself has mentioned the design process doesn't come terribly easy to her ( which i distinguish from the common coutures like Galliano or even Hussian who can piss the stuff out.) and, as johnny was alluding to, her aesthetic is cool as hell. she has been around for a while, but her menswear specifically which has been a little less accessible until now, is at the top of the food chain.

[zamb]

I'm not sure about Slimane. He influenced menswear for men, but his own influences and end product were often less than desirable.

now that this forum has what like 10 affiliate boutiques all offering a similar viewpoint/aesthetic boredom is likely to ensue and only a few names will have the balloons to survive. im belgian so maybe i am biased but ann demeulemeester is the most noteworthy. she has all the right components; Belgian, she herself has mentioned the design process doesn't come terribly easy to her ( which i distinguish from the common coutures like Galliano or even Hussian who can piss the stuff out.) and, as johnny was alluding to, her aesthetic is cool as hell. she has been around for a while, but her menswear specifically which has been a little less accessible until now, is at the top of the food chain.

If there is going to be any list of designers who has been/ achieved greatness in the last 20-25 years, Slimane has to be on that list, and it can't be a matter of opinion but of unquestionable fact.
By any standard, that one can use to judge a designers' greatness. this is a designer par excellence.
This is from a man who doesn't own a single piece from Slimane.
I am an ardent student of fashion, in both mens and womenswear, and by student I mean someone who studies the industry and its personalities very closely, this man is almost singlehandedly responsible for the standing menswear now has in the fashion Industry, he has reshaped and readjusted the fit of clothing for an entire generation, and has managed to achieve, by doing menswear, a HUGE, and I mean HUGE, womenswear following. I think since 1995 to now, we have not had a designer who is or has been as influential as he was, and still is.
right now there is a tremendous void in the industry because of his absence..................

[christianef]

without question the man deserves some serious accolade.
some sharp tailoring and even sharper marketing.
my concern is that when i think of the slimane aesthetic i think of s/s 2005 and f/w 2006 and a lot of what followed. most of, despite appealing to an arguably unchartered demographic, wasn't:
a. all that great.
b. all that special. he refined a look that was pretty common among a stead fast emerging scene at a time where access to the bands he used was reaching a good summit. his timing was a lot more impeccable than his collections, i find. and he did a good job of refining it, but it seems to me he's a bit too much of a zeitgeist. Demeulemeester i compare, not very dangerously given the often literal references, to someone like Nirvana who for reasons sometimes hard to pinpoint are inarguably brilliant and you thank god they exist because they very easily couldn't have. The Slimane revolution is more like , i don't know, Vitalic? He got a lot of men into menswear because of slim silhouettes and boys who could pass for women, and that is a feat in and of itself, but how can something be great if its only good.

[zamb]

without question the man deserves some serious accolade.
some sharp tailoring and even sharper marketing.
my concern is that when i think of the slimane aesthetic i think of s/s 2005 and f/w 2006 and a lot of what followed. most of, despite appealing to an arguably unchartered demographic, wasn't:
a. all that great.
b. all that special. he refined a look that was pretty common among a stead fast emerging scene at a time where access to the bands he used was reaching a good summit. his timing was a lot more impeccable than his collections, i find. and he did a good job of refining it, but it seems to me he's a bit too much of a zeitgeist. Demeulemeester i compare, not very dangerously given the often literal references, to someone like Nirvana who for reasons sometimes hard to pinpoint are inarguably brilliant and you thank god they exist because they very easily couldn't have. The Slimane revolution is more like , i don't know, Vitalic? He got a lot of men into menswear because of slim silhouettes and boys who could pass for women, and that is a feat in and of itself, but how can something be great if its only good.

I am not understanding your argument,
what about his work to you, that made it good instead of great?
also, in my earlier posts, and here again I am going to say, that greatness is an accomplishment, something to be achieved, based on ones body of work over time and its influence over the wider field in which one works,
Slimanes influence on Menswear over the last eight or so years is to strong, too influential for one to not call him great, whether they like his individual designs or not.
In the same way I think someone like Giorgio Armani's menswear is garbage, but its influence in its time was too strong to not regard him as great!

[Faust]

I'm not sure about Slimane. He influenced menswear for men, but his own influences and end product were often less than desirable.

now that this forum has what like 10 affiliate boutiques all offering a similar viewpoint/aesthetic boredom is likely to ensue and only a few names will have the balloons to survive. im belgian so maybe i am biased but ann demeulemeester is the most noteworthy. she has all the right components; Belgian, she herself has mentioned the design process doesn't come terribly easy to her ( which i distinguish from the common coutures like Galliano or even Hussian who can piss the stuff out.) and, as johnny was alluding to, her aesthetic is cool as hell. she has been around for a while, but her menswear specifically which has been a little less accessible until now, is at the top of the food chain.

I support this nomination, but I am also biased.

Also agree on Slimane with both of you and Zam, lol. He did have a profound influence, but I think we also have to thank the Dior marketing team as much as him. I mean, his YSL stuff was stellar, and it did not change shit.

[zamb]

I support this nomination, but I am also biased.

Also agree on Slimane with both of you and Zam, lol. He did have a profound influence, but I think we also have to thank the Dior marketing team as much as him. I mean, his YSL stuff was stellar, and it did not change shit.

yes, but if my memory is accurate he only did two collectionsd under the YSl label, and at that time, at least not to the massses, but to industry insiderss he was white hot!
it was upon the strength of these two collections, along with the PPR takeover/ Tom Ford controversey, that made Dior quickly signed him.
actually looking back at the collections, there is no distinctive difference between what he did at YSl and at Dior.

Theyskens should have been in this discussion but he has seriously damaged his Legacy

I think Chalayan and McQueen are the only two that comes to mind who started thier career in the nineties

[eat me]

What makes one a great designer... I suppose it depends on the meaning of "great" in the question. For me, I would have to say innovation (considering it's aesthetically pleasing). It could innovation in design itself, or the approach to design. Or the approach to storytelling/marketing/selling, etc.

I think this is what a lot of people expect from new designers. When they don't see radically anything new in young labels they are quick to dismiss them. Which is weird, considering most of their favorites had years to get where they are now. Say, RO. He's doing great now, but hell, many of the stuff he's done in earlier years (not even the beginning, just 3-4 years away) don't look anything as good as the current collections.

But in today's fast-paced culture people want everything now, and if you're wrong with your first output, you almost have no second chance given. It throws people off trying something innovative, and instead we get a whole bunch of copycats who are doing their version of more established designers.

The other thing is that being innovative is nigh impossible nowadays. Whatever you'll come up with, someone will find something similar and point you to it: "It has been done already". Well, what haven't? I can't count how many times I thought of something, only to see it done with every new designer I unearth. And that's half of my minor design/construction/silhouette ideas are out of the window even before I finished college. It's like you constantly need to develop new ideas even before you have time to realize the previous ones.

Perhaps the only field where we could still see some major innovations is the development of experimental/high-tech/eco textiles.

there are too many magazines and they have pages to fill.

That is so true. I used to like to go and flip through fashion mags and occasionally buy some of them that I liked. Lately I can't find anything other than professional publications (like textileview) to be worth buying. They just don't do anything for me emotionally. Like this LOVE mag that was launched with great panache. What a load bs, they've hypocritically put an obese model/singer on the cover and had a big backing behind the magazine, but it was kind of more pretense and "omg-like-darling-so-edgy-right" attitude. With few exceptions, I can't even be bothered to go through fashion magazines in the library, let alone buy one. They promote all the same designers, the same mind set, the same values and the same visual aesthetics.

What about introducing a new aesthetic? I think that's a mark of a great designer, no?

This goes back to the innovation question. Let's take Slimane for example. Did he invent the look he is credited for? No. It's been there in subcultures for ages. But he brought it to mainstream. And very skillfully. Does that make a designer great? Possibly.

I thought most relevant to this discussion on why there are no more great designers.

That's kind of sad and potentially untrue. Let's elaborate? Who do you hold as a great designer and for what reason? Then maybe we can come up with modern analogies.

That's where you'll find the great designers, hiding in the corners (like SZ).

So there are great designers after all? I will agree though, they are hiding in the corners. Kind of like great musicians still come out, only you can't seem them through the amount of shlock that's forced on (and loved by) the masses from the likes of MTV. Today it takes a good amount of energy and willingness to dig for something worthy of attention, be it in art, fashion, literature or music. And the majority of people just can't be bothered.

coutures like Galliano or even Hussian who can piss the stuff out

haha that's hilarious

[Faust]

Eat_me, I think saying that there can be no innovation is a defeatist view. Everyone (myself included) can talk about the good old days, but rest assured, innovation is always possible! There will be strong voices in the days to come, I am absolutely sure of it.

I also think you can have a strong aesthetic voice by mixing and appropriating existing elements. For example, I don't agree that Hedi Slimane took something that was there already, not up and including Victim of the Crime. I think it was very new and fresh. The closest was maybe Helmut, but Hedi's stuff was more extreme and younger.
Cloak was another example of that. There were lots of military details for example, but Alex made the style distinctly his own.

[eat me]

Faust, I meant that there certainly can't be anymore innovation as revolutionary/fresh (at the time) as Dior's new look, or Chanel's feministic designs. Yeah, we can and will still tweak here and there, but fashion has been going round in cycles for quite some time now. Unless people will suddenly start wearing sacks instead of pants and balls of puff instead of jackets, I can't see it changing.

Now, the textiles are a different matter. It would be innovative to wear, for example, spray-on clothes, of which there are examples already in the industry. Or Miyake's late experiments in his laboratory/studio (somewhere read that he is going to concentrate exclusively on textiles as well, and he certainly knows what he's doing).

I don't really think there is anything left to explore in terms of silhouette in particular. There will be minor changes in shapes/forms/function/construction, but it's not going to be revolutionary. And everything else is more to do with materials than design. Partly, design can be saved with construction techniques - seamless joints, no thread, sewing with heat, etc. But that's it. The only thing left I think is for men to start wearing skirts more often.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, but so far I have seen no evidence of major freshness. As for Slimane, he took the look from the subculture of particular music genres and brought it into fashion. As did Westwood in her time. To his credit, it doesn't seem obviously so, and the way he and the marketing brigade from Dior did it proved to be very influential, but nevertheless, he didn't invent the skinny/androgynous silhouette, so often associated with him now. Not to say that his work for Dior is less than noteworthy, it is awesome.

I'm glad we've got this discussion going on though, maybe we will stumble across something revelational in the process :).

[christianef]

hmm is it really hiding in the corners? popular culture and 'strangers reactions to your clothes' will obviously over shadow a lot of the brands here at SZ. but context matters. as i mentioned there's now nearly a dozen affiliate boutiques all offering basically the same brands here. and as the luxury market exploded from globalization and the internet the underground market was swept into the current as well. Slimane had a 'HUGE' influence on menswear but most men still have no clue who Slimane is or about Dior Homme. I dont think you have dig for great music or fashion its never been more easily accessible....you just have to care about it. I mean damir, julius etc show at Paris week and women go bonkers for Rick leathers and ann lace up sandals etc etc if you follow fashion its not the most elusive stuff ever.

[Faust]

Half a dozen, and many different brands :-) SZ is just an epicenter of a certain style, and that style has definitely gotten a little bit more mainstream, so it's very easy to get a bit jaded about this aesthetic and the designers we champion (and by the way, I personally champion MANY more than what's discussed here), but make no mistake - we are a black drop in a rainbow fashion bucket. So, yeah, I think they are waaaay on the fringes... and that's just the way I like it.

[zamb]

Faust, I meant that there certainly can't be anymore innovation as revolutionary/fresh (at the time) as Dior's new look, or Chanel's feministic designs. Yeah, we can and will still tweak here and there, but fashion has been going round in cycles for quite some time now. Unless people will suddenly start wearing sacks instead of pants and balls of puff instead of jackets, I can't see it changing.

Now, the textiles are a different matter. It would be innovative to wear, for example, spray-on clothes, of which there are examples already in the industry. Or Miyake's late experiments in his laboratory/studio (somewhere read that he is going to concentrate exclusively on textiles as well, and he certainly knows what he's doing).

I don't really think there is anything left to explore in terms of silhouette in particular. There will be minor changes in shapes/forms/function/construction, but it's not going to be revolutionary. And everything else is more to do with materials than design. Partly, design can be saved with construction techniques - seamless joints, no thread, sewing with heat, etc. But that's it. The only thing left I think is for men to start wearing skirts more often.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, but so far I have seen no evidence of major freshness. As for Slimane, he took the look from the subculture of particular music genres and brought it into fashion. As did Westwood in her time. To his credit, it doesn't seem obviously so, and the way he and the marketing brigade from Dior did it proved to be very influential, but nevertheless, he didn't invent the skinny/androgynous silhouette, so often associated with him now. Not to say that his work for Dior is less than noteworthy, it is awesome.

I'm glad we've got this discussion going on though, maybe we will stumble across something revelational in the process :).

Where were you at the time when these things happened?

Like me, I think you were still unborn and in the lineage of your parents. If you should do some historical research, you would come to realize that Dior and Chanel's work were not as revolutionary as they are made out to be, but made so in part by the marketing and press support that got behind them.
It may be more now than it was in those days, but almost all of modern fashions' successful designers are in part successful because of good marketing.
To make any attempt to reduce Slimane's work to copying or reinterpreting the way certain bands dress is to misunderstand and disregard the very beginnings and essence of his work.
Hedi's work was exceptionally graceful and elegant in the beginning,
and the tailoring was impeccable, in part because, like bespoke tailoring, he was using the Dior and YSL Couture ateliers to develop his work. at lot of it was done by hand, It was in the latter stages the he began this whole band alliance thing, by then he had already established himself and the quality of the work was deteriorating.

Also to say that there cant be no innovation in the way that Dior and Chanel was, is to forget about a designer like Hussien Chalayan and his body of work which stands worlds apart from what is accepted by mainstream fashion. I think his work is rich with ideas that can be developed to send fashion in completely new directions......
there are others, but that all for now...........

[ProfMonnitoff]

I believe that greatness is defined by the impact that the artist's work has. (I realize that this is a fairly simple/limited definition). I think there have been several great designers recently. Dior, YSL, etc. had the advantage that they basically created the industry. That made it a bit easier to be "innovative".

I'm optimistic about contemporary fashion. There is plenty innovation, both at the NY/Paris/Milan shows and elsewhere.

Semi-recent
- Yohji
- Junya (and CdG in general)
- Ann D (her consistency makes it easy to forget that she's been at it for some 20 years now)
- Westwood

Recent
- Slimane
- MMM
- Hussein Chalayan
- BLESS
- (Haider Ackermann?)

I think Tom Ford also needs to be included on such a list in one way or another. I've never been fond of anything he designed, but I still admire what he has done. Perhaps it's more business than fashion though. Same with Karl Lagerfeld.

There is a difference between inlfuencing the art/fashion world and influencing the world at large. In terms of influencing the world at large, I'd keep everybody on the first list except maybe Ann D. On the second list I'd only keep Slimane. Lagerfeld and Ford would suddenly be much more significant.

edit: However, if you carry that argument to its logical concludion, the most influential "designer" of the decade is H&M.

I don't know much about Japanese niche labels other than SZ-typical brands, so I can't really comment on that.