It's All a Blur to Them (Dressing across genders)

[Faust]

why are western men conditioned to be weak and effete from a young age?

cause we don't like blowing up people who don't share our religious beliefs? Mr Pham surely sounds like a westerner to me.

[Faust]

clothes have no sexuality. there are no sexes on clothes .the end.

I disagree. Clothes have a lot of sexuality!

Anyway, there is something in La Perla's article that makes me want to vomit - I think it's that "Socialite-going-to-the-zoo-to-study-the-hoi-polloi" tone that permeates her writing. I can't believe NYT gives her the time of day. She'd probably be good reviewing Dior's New Look though...

[casem]

Why haven't you been banned yet?^^

[coup de grace]

telling men to dress one way and women another is just as discriminating as telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus. FACT!

Fuck anyone that thinks anything else. If they can discriminate against me I'll do the same agains them. FUCK them. Seriously. I have no patience to heartless idiots who care about noone but them selves. FUCK THEM.

i wish i was like you
easily amused

[philip nod]

i'll take all the blame
aquaseafoamshame

[Mail-Moth]

i'm not sure whether shahadat-al-halal is trolling or sincerely asking the question.

He's trolling. A muslim fondamentalist on SZ, being all over RO jackets in the classifieds ? You must be joking

One of them was a bomber jacket, though. That makes sense in a way.

[theetruscan]

First, I couldn't get past the "we're more outside the box than previous generations" nonsense. This article seemed dull.

Moronic Bullshit

Second, why is this idiot here. He's got some kind of insecurity that leave his dumb ass saying only Manly Men in dungarees and a cowboy hat are real men. Fine, what the fuck are you doing here? No one gives a shit about your issues, go die.

Third, apparently heirloom vehemently hates me for thinking menswear and womenswear are fundamentally different, and that men and women do best in different clothes. Oh well. Apparently high heels are right up there with the the civil rights fight of the 50s and 60s. Ugh, this thread is just depressing.

[DRRRK]

telling men to dress one way and women another is just as discriminating as telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus. FACT!

Fuck anyone that thinks anything else. If they can discriminate against me I'll do the same agains them. FUCK them. Seriously. I have no patience to heartless idiots who care about noone but them selves. FUCK THEM.

So true. Thinking of my experiences in the past gives me headaches again.

[Heirloom]

First, I couldn't get past the "we're more outside the box than previous generations" nonsense. This article seemed dull.



Second, why is this idiot here. He's got some kind of insecurity that leave his dumb ass saying only Manly Men in dungarees and a cowboy hat are real men. Fine, what the fuck are you doing here? No one gives a shit about your issues, go die.

Third, apparently heirloom vehemently hates me for thinking menswear and womenswear are fundamentally different, and that men and women do best in different clothes. Oh well. Apparently high heels are right up there with the the civil rights fight of the 50s and 60s. Ugh, this thread is just depressing.

I must say my feelings are genuinely hurt when someone like shalala isn't banned, but someone who makes redundant comments about whatever is warned. If he tried to go into an analytical discussion about it I'd give him my word, but as he doesn't even want to discuss it, only insult people and then ask us to leave this thread alone, i won't answer to him. the only thing I'd like to say is that if he considers femininity to WEAKEN a man, he has some serious issues with his view on women.

I think people need to recognize that 100 years ago women fought to wear pants, and today we should be doing the same for men to wear skirts. It's nothing but fair.

Faust: I know what you mean, but sexuality is something we read into clothes. It's not there from the beginning. It's in your interpretation. in the social construction.
Also I think there are two different kinds of people. Those who can see beauty and sex together and those who separate the two. I'm very much about having beauty separated from sex, probably as a reaction to seeing sexy women being considered beautiful instead of considering beauty beautiful. So I try to balance that out by making beauty something intellectual and put it on neutral ground for everyone to love and connect with, no matter background or gender or sex.

[Faust]

He's trolling. A muslim fondamentalist on SZ, being all over RO jackets in the classifieds ? You must be joking

One of them was a bomber jacket, though. That makes sense in a way.

[Faust]

I must say my feelings are genuinely hurt when someone like shalala isn't banned, but someone who makes redundant comments about whatever is warned. If he tried to go into an analytical discussion about it I'd give him my word, but as he doesn't even want to discuss it, only insult people and then ask us to leave this thread alone, i won't answer to him. the only thing I'd like to say is that if he considers femininity to WEAKEN a man, he has some serious issues with his view on women.

I think people need to recognize that 100 years ago women fought to wear pants, and today we should be doing the same for men to wear skirts. It's nothing but fair.

Faust: I know what you mean, but sexuality is something we read into clothes. It's not there from the beginning. It's in your interpretation. in the social construction.
Also I think there are two different kinds of people. Those who can see beauty and sex together and those who separate the two. I'm very much about having beauty separated from sex, probably as a reaction to seeing sexy women being considered beautiful instead of considering beauty beautiful. So I try to balance that out by making beauty something intellectual and put it on neutral ground for everyone to love and connect with, no matter background or gender or sex.

I am afraid he will blow up SZ servers. But then it'd be a suicide attack, so maybe worth it?

I don't think sexuality is a social construct at all - I think it's deeply instinctual. Maybe laika, as a professional, can shed some light on this matter.

And I have to say, I agree with theetruscan, but we've discussed this before already. The way you disregard the instinctual, the natural and try to pull the social construct model over it seems disingenuous. How does that make any you different from the bigots that you've been fighting against all your life?

[zamb]

I wont bother to even entertain a conversation with Mr. Halal because I consider it a waste of time..................I have already made it up in my mind that it would be wasteful to have a conversation with someone who simply dismisses the entire male population of western society......

but let me say that Heirloom, I want to take the time to ask you to explain something, because right now our society I having a major discussion about gender and sexuality, I think we are at a place where we are on the cusp of something, there are already states in America, where Same Sex marriages are legal, and its probably only a matter of time before it becomes national. while I strongly disagree with this position, in my public life I am indifferent to whether it happens or not. Everyone who knows me knows what my position is, so there is no point in even restating it here,

however, I would like you to explain upon what foundation do you conclude this statement to be a fact:

telling men to dress one way and women another is just as discriminating as telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus. FACT!.

I think tying homosexuals push to have the right to same sex marriage or to be treated with Civil respect to the struggles of blacks for equality has been one of the stupidest and a seriously unfair thing for the gay community to do.
There is no discriminatory act that has been done to homosexuals that can be compared to the historical struggles of blacks in the west (and even everywhere else). Bear in mind my friend, that there was a time when blacks could not even be on the bus let alone sit in the back.
bear in mind that before the emancipation proclamation that blacks had endured over four hundred years of slavery in the west, I don't even want to itemize the details of that, but do you want to consider comparing that to the struggles of homosexuals for marriage rights...................... compounded by the fact that there are many blacks that are a part of the gay community?................. and probably the fact that many slaves might have been gay?

Make no mistake about it, I do not believe in unfair discrimination against anyone, but I do believe that there needs to be a certain level of restraint and regulation in our society, we cant have a world where every man does what is right in his own eyes. while I am not against androgyny, I do like specific distinctions between men and women, in clothing etc, as life is a whole lot easier that way and there are logical and legitimate reasons for such distinctions.

I also find this statement sad

Fuck anyone that thinks anything else. If they can discriminate against me I'll do the same agains them. FUCK them. Seriously. I have no patience to heartless idiots who care about noone but them selves. FUCK THEM.

I can understand your frustration to a point, and am willing to see this as a statement of frustration than something you really mean.
I personally am willing to admit that there is an aspect to being gay that I do not understand, and probably never will, because I am not. I have come to this conclusion because I have many friends that are Gay and don't believe people would necessarily choose to be or become something/ someone that would draw unfavorable treatment to themselves. However, this does not bring me to support the push for the right to marry, nor to accept the practice of homosexuality, I am emphasizing the word practice because I do make a distinction between the individual and the practice, I would never treat another individual unfairly because they are/ or choose to be someone I disagree with, after all, are we not all made by the same loving creator who has given all men the right to exist? (albeit with order and civility)

I have more to say, but await an intelligent and civil response from you......

[Heirloom]

ok, here we go.

Yes, it's just as discriminating. Homosexuals have just had the benefit to hide their sexuality. A black man might find it difficult to hind his skin or curls. This is why blacks have had worse treatment in history than homosexuals. If homosexuality had been as visible as black skin, they'd probably been alot worse treated as a group than what "they" have.

History aside, the act of dismiss someone because of the way they dress is as discriminating as someone being racist, simply because it's completely irrelevant, and hurts that persons true nature, something he or she can do nothing about.

You say there is a need for a "certain level of restraint and regulation in our society, we cant have a world where every man does what is right in his own eyes."

Yes we can have that. The only difference would be a bit more peace from the decrease of hate crimes and less repressed individuals. How much chaos can someone create simply by loving who they want to and dressing how they want to? There is no threat!

My last statement was frustration. I was tired after long day of working for something that doesn't contribute to making me happy, and the last thing I wanted to read was that being myself is wrong cause it degrades men. It's VERY insulting. I don't let it get to me in real life, but in a discussion i use it as fuel and motivation to explain what my view is like.

About samesex marriage. I want marriage to be separate from religion and gender neutral. If christianity doesn't want anything to do with same sex marriage, then I don't want anything to do with them. I just want the same legal rights as anyone else. I've grown up singing in church choirs all my childhood and I have close friends who are deeply christian, and I see alot of beauty and use of religion in our life, but religion has nothing to do with peoples civil rights or the state. It's a personal thing and should be kept on that level. Marriage is a personal thing and should be kept on that level, not made into a world wide debate.

I'm digressing, but I feel all these things are in the same spirit and needs to be in lin with eachother, so we don't experience brain off/ on syndrome.

One more thing. I don't need your support to practice homosexuality. I need you to not care. People care too much. I fuck who I like to, and you do the same.

I can't believe I really have to defend myself. Where are everyone? This place is stone age.

[Heirloom]

I am afraid he will blow up SZ servers. But then it'd be a suicide attack, so maybe worth it?

I don't think sexuality is a social construct at all - I think it's deeply instinctual. Maybe laika, as a professional, can shed some light on this matter.

And I have to say, I agree with theetruscan, but we've discussed this before already. The way you disregard the instinctual, the natural and try to pull the social construct model over it seems disingenuous. How does that make any you different from the bigots that you've been fighting against all your life?

sexuality in it's existence is instinctual. In it's shape, social construct. I don't disregard anyones personal identity or true nature, but i expect other people to admit there are others who don't fit in with one or the other. That's just how it is. I'm one of them. I know me. I love myself and I wouldn't push myself into a mold if there's no reason to other than to please other peoples wish for order in society. I've heard society say things to me all my life that doesn't rhyme with what I feel inside. Why would I hurt myself when there's no higher purpose to conform other than to make things look neat and uniform? Where is the worth in that?

I understand if you like the order male and female creates, but it really isn't as simple as that. While I completely respect that you are a man who is very happy about your life, your body, your clothes, i just expect the same thing in return, no matter if my heels are 3 or 10 cm tall. It's completely irrelevant.

[zamb]

I save this spot for a future response. It'll be long and I don't have time to type it now.

not a problem, take your time,