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  • whitney
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 300

    by categorizing, or placing them under something, filing them away or labeling them as x or y humans can understand what something is. and if they come across another like it in appearance they'd likely place them under the same category and whatever observations they've observed in the former they'd have that in mind when dealing with the latter. this doesn't necessary just apply towards race, gender, sexuality alone but also appearance and speech.

    f.e.a.r. stands for false evidence appearing real, and thats what i meant

    as for religion i do agree that it is needed to a certain extent because without a "higher" power to assure people that there will be something after death, that there is this higher being that will make us responsible for our actions in this life time and it would carry across to our next life or life after death whichever it is that that religion dictates. that 'religion' would always be there to give humans a peace of mind as not all would like to accept the idea that once you die you're just going to be decomposed.

    but the "religion" i think we are getting more and more away from is belief that male should only couple with female, the idea of what roles a gender should play. as well as some other controversies i rather not go into because then my face would be glued to the computer screen.
    you stole my signature :insert mad face:

    Comment

    • zamb
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2006
      • 5834

      Originally posted by viceroy View Post
      You "love" your "gay" friends...but this does not change the fact they are, in your mind (and correct me if I am wrong), going to burn in hell. Surely "God" will not allow (the "sin" of) fags into the paradise that is "heaven."
      what is the point of you asking me to "correct you if you are wrong" when you have already ascribed a presupposed belief to me..............
      How do you know what happens in my mind, with respect to hell or any other such concept whether real or imagined?
      Also, the word "fag" or any variation of it is not a part of my vocabulary, as I find such words to be disrespectful and derogatory, so I would appreciate that if you want to have a conversation (which I have no problem doing) that you would communicate in a civil and respectful manner...............................
      “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
      .................................................. .......................


      Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

      Comment

      • zamb
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2006
        • 5834

        Originally posted by whitney View Post
        by categorizing, or placing them under something, filing them away or labeling them as x or y humans can understand what something is. and if they come across another like it in appearance they'd likely place them under the same category and whatever observations they've observed in the former they'd have that in mind when dealing with the latter. this doesn't necessary just apply towards race, gender, sexuality alone but also appearance and speech.

        f.e.a.r. stands for false evidence appearing real, and thats what i meant

        as for religion i do agree that it is needed to a certain extent because without a "higher" power to assure people that there will be something after death, that there is this higher being that will make us responsible for our actions in this life time and it would carry across to our next life or life after death whichever it is that that religion dictates. that 'religion' would always be there to give humans a peace of mind as not all would like to accept the idea that once you die you're just going to be decomposed.

        but the "religion" i think we are getting more and more away from is belief that male should only couple with female, the idea of what roles a gender should play. as well as some other controversies i rather not go into because then my face would be glued to the computer screen.
        the difference with me, is that I don't see religion in such vague terms, and for me, the reasons and benefits of my religious life exist in the present, whatever afterlife exist, is only an added incentive and not the underlying reason.
        While God can and should be seen as an higher power, I don't see him as a far removed judge of human affairs and actions, but an ever present friend whose wisdom and knowledge far outweighs anything that i can attain to, and I can depend on him as an adviser, a friend, a confidant who will steer me in a direction that gives my life true meaning and purpose . the joys of a religious life are more immediate than an afterlife, i tell you this, I dont believe in an afterlife, per se, as i believe that some will not die, but will attain life eternal while never experiencing physical death,
        immediate benefits of the religious life: it is to live everyday and to experience the beauty of living, to know than each person that I interact with, has elements of God and by extension, goodness it them, that the ability to create and to appreciate others creation, stems from man being made in the image of God. and that the truest revelation of who God is, was manifested in the person of Jesus Christ whose teachings and living example transcends time, space and any other example before or after it. it is in this framework that I either agree, or disagree with things, whether they be sexual or otherwise. Disagreeing with something that someone does, is not reason enough to see the person, made in the image of the same God as I am as being less than I am
        “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
        .................................................. .......................


        Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

        Comment

        • LittleTombo
          Junior Member
          • Mar 2009
          • 26

          Zamb:
          "I think tying homosexuals push to have the right to same sex marriage or to be treated with Civil respect to the struggles of blacks for equality has been one of the stupidest and a seriously unfair thing for the gay community to do. "
          ----
          Heirloom told you off alreay on that remark better than I ever could.That statement of yours is just too fucked up for words.
          Discrimination is discrimination, how can you deny that?

          I believe in God too but I don't feel the need to drag him/her or it into this discussion like you.It's equal rights for all humans we are talking about;male or female_black or white_straight or gay.It's very simple.

          you say you've even slept in the same bed as one of your friends. WTF what kind of line is that?
          Who on this forum haven't done that?

          I'm not offended by the word;fag.It's just a silly word. I'm a fagot myself but first and foremost I'm a human being with a soul just like you. I'm more offended by your juvenile way of putting roughly 10% of the worlds population down on.

          Comment

          • Sombre
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1291

            I know Zamb will answer you when he gets back, but since he's not here and you are, let me try to clear up what I think he meant, as I probably understand his position better than most here, since we're from the same country with very strong views on homosexuality.

            I think what he meant by the quote you reproduced is that he thinks the struggle of blacks and the gay community for equality are not of the same magnitude due to differing historical treatment.

            Whether or not you want to see it, homosexuality and gay rights are related to religion, as the religious community is one of the biggest opponents of gay rights.

            As for his sleeping in the same bed with one of his gay friends, I think he was trying to say he's not homophobic, as no homophobic (especially Jamaican) man would sleep in the same bed as a gay man.

            I don't wish to get myself involved in this argument, but I think some people here have been misreading some of Zamb's comments or taking everything he says as bigotry, and then ignoring him when he tries to explain. That isn't fair.
            An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

            Originally posted by BBSCCP
            I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

            Comment

            • LittleTombo
              Junior Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 26

              Wheater or not you want to see it, women and people of other colour than white were related to religion once too, as the religious community was one of the biggest opponents of their human rights!
              what does that mean? that we should obey a stupid old way of thinking? Lean and back and say hey it's religion what are you gonna do about it?

              My country we're the firs one in the world to leagalize same sex marriages in 89 and for that I'm very proud..someone's got to take the frst step for the rest to follow...

              Comment

              • zamb
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2006
                • 5834

                Is there any point in even having a discussion with you?
                did you read the context in which my statements were made?
                the things that came before and after it?
                Is there any need for me to even restate what I meant?
                Or are you going to read into my argument what you want to see and ignore the essence of it?

                Also please don't mis-categorize the statements Heirloom made, I asked him a question and he took the time to formulate his thoughts and gave his reasons as to why he feels the way he does, if you see that as telling off, then maybe that's the reason you seem unable to understand what I mean.

                If I being a stranger called you a Fag, would you consider it a silly word?............ well for me it isnt a silly word but a derogatory statement,
                Your conception of God, may be radically different from mine, the reason God came into the discussion is to give a broader framework, as to the wellsprings that brings into being the positions that I hold.
                if you believe that equal rights can be agreed upon without having a common foundation to establish those rights, then maybe you need to think about your ideas a bit further.........................


                Originally posted by LittleTombo View Post
                Zamb:
                "I think tying homosexuals push to have the right to same sex marriage or to be treated with Civil respect to the struggles of blacks for equality has been one of the stupidest and a seriously unfair thing for the gay community to do. "
                ----
                Heirloom told you off alreay on that remark better than I ever could.That statement of yours is just too fucked up for words.
                Discrimination is discrimination, how can you deny that?

                I believe in God too but I don't feel the need to drag him/her or it into this discussion like you.It's equal rights for all humans we are talking about;male or female_black or white_straight or gay.It's very simple.

                you say you've even slept in the same bed as one of your friends. WTF what kind of line is that?
                Who on this forum haven't done that?

                I'm not offended by the word;fag.It's just a silly word. I'm a fagot myself but first and foremost I'm a human being with a soul just like you. I'm more offended by your juvenile way of putting roughly 10% of the worlds population down on.
                “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                .................................................. .......................


                Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                Comment

                • Sombre
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 1291

                  Originally posted by LittleTombo View Post
                  Wheater or not you want to see it, women and people of other colour than white were related to religion once too, as the religious community was one of the biggest opponents of their human rights!
                  what does that mean? that we should obey a stupid old way of thinking? Lean and back and say hey it's religion what are you gonna do about it?

                  My country we're the firs one in the world to leagalize same sex marriages in 89 and for that I'm very proud..someone's got to take the frst step for the rest to follow...
                  My mistake. I should have added that religion is related to gay rights also becuase the Bible makes reference to homosexuality.

                  Female rights were related to religion. I don't believe racial equality ever was, at least not in Judeo-Christian doctrine, as I don't recall the Bible making mention of race in the sense you're using it. If I'm wrong feel free to show me a passage that contradicts me.

                  Anyway, yes women's rights are related to religion. Does that mean women should not be seen as equals to men? No. Does that sentence make any assumption that they should or should not be? NO. So how the hell can you interpret my prior statement regarding religion and homosexuality as taking one side or the other? Read the words on the page, not what you want to see on the page. You're arguing with a villain you've made up, and I don't want to sit and play pretend with you. I have more important things to do.
                  An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

                  Originally posted by BBSCCP
                  I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

                  Comment

                  • LittleTombo
                    Junior Member
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 26

                    *Heirlooms respons to your post was more articulate and nicely formed than I could ever had done(I'm still not that good at these discussions in english,which is not my native language. But I want to participate because I believe I have a thing or two to say in this too.Even though you may put my writings off as irrelevant in this discussion)

                    Yes I've read all of what you wrote. And I'm still way more offended by your writings than if you stopped me on the street and called me a fag.

                    and what common foundation is that you speak of? please explain that to me before you say I'm against it.

                    Comment

                    • zamb
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2006
                      • 5834

                      Thanks J,

                      some of the things you say are true here, and I appreciate your comments, However, I would like to think that the source of my ideas, at least at this point in my life, are not based upon my upbringing and country of origin, but upon things that I have analyzed, assessed and thought about in formulating a worldview and principles by which I can live.
                      I have never told you this before, but I am related by blood to Garvey (He and my maternal grandmother were cousins).................and while I disagree with many of his teachings, I cannot downplay his impact of the Western World and the lives of blacks in particular. When someone says to me, knowing this history of blacks in the west, that in a world as it is now, the fights for civil rights for Homosexuals is equal to the struggles of blacks for equality, I am and will forever be disagreeing with that statement. Anyone who knows the history of both struggles cannot, and I say this without apology, CANNOT logically make that kind of statement.
                      It is the reason why in responding, Heirloom said, "History Aside",
                      by dismissing the most fundamental aspect of the situation, the part that would give the distinctions that are necessary, he went on to give his reasons why.
                      But for me, History cannot be dismissed, it cannot be put aside, but has to be seen for what it is,............................and this the essence of my disagreement with his statements


                      Originally posted by SombreResplendence View Post
                      I know Zamb will answer you when he gets back, but since he's not here and you are, let me try to clear up what I think he meant, as I probably understand his position better than most here, since we're from the same country with very strong views on homosexuality.

                      I think what he meant by the quote you reproduced is that he thinks the struggle of blacks and the gay community for equality are not of the same magnitude due to differing historical treatment.

                      Whether or not you want to see it, homosexuality and gay rights are related to religion, as the religious community is one of the biggest opponents of gay rights.

                      As for his sleeping in the same bed with one of his gay friends, I think he was trying to say he's not homophobic, as no homophobic (especially Jamaican) man would sleep in the same bed as a gay man.

                      I don't wish to get myself involved in this argument, but I think some people here have been misreading some of Zamb's comments or taking everything he says as bigotry, and then ignoring him when he tries to explain. That isn't fair.
                      Last edited by zamb; 12-14-2009, 05:17 PM.
                      “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                      .................................................. .......................


                      Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                      Comment

                      • LittleTombo
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 26

                        SombreResplendence
                        it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that homosexuals should have their bodyparts chopped off either...never the less that is what important religious people used to do here in europe. Just like I can't find anywhere in the bible where it said to treat people of colour as slaves, though alot of european priests used to do just that too. Yes it's sick but it's history. The biblical scriptures does not have all the answers as to why religious people are behaving like they do, alot of it is what political situation their country is in(what they can and can't allow themselves to say and do).

                        I didn't say you were takin any side I was just trying to elaborate what Zamb previously said about religion and gods intent of man
                        I don't think I'm fighting any kind of selfmade papertiger..the fact that this thread has far less participants that that whole nailpolish thing is just unbelieveable

                        Comment

                        • Sombre
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 1291

                          Originally posted by zamb View Post
                          Thanks J,

                          some of the things you say are true here, and I appreciate your comments, However, I would like to think that the source of my ideas, at least at this point in my life, are not based upon my upbringing and country of origin, but upon things that I have analyzed, assessed and thought about in formulating a worldview and principles by which I can live.
                          I have never told you this before, but I am related by blood to Garvey (He and my maternal grandmother were cousins).................and while I disagree with many of his teachings, I cannot downplay his impact of the Western World and the lives of blacks in particular. When someone says to me, knowing this history of blacks in the west, that in a world as it is now, the fights for Civil rights for Homosexuals is equal to the struggles of blacks for equality, I am and Will forever disagree. anyone who knows the history of both struggles cannot, and I say this without apology, CANNOT logically make that kind of statement.
                          It is the reason why in responding, Heirloom said, "History Aside" .
                          By dismissing the most fundamental aspect of the situation, that would give the distinctions that are necessary, he went on to give is reasons why.
                          But for me, History cannot be dismissed, it cannot be put aside, but has to be seen for what it is,............................and this the essence of my disagreement with his statements
                          I apologize. It wasn't a good assessment; I wouldn't like the same reasons ascribed to my beliefs either.

                          Did your relationship to Garvey follow you while growing up? If it did I can imagine it must have been difficult to have everybody ask you things about him and then tell them you didn't agree with a lot of it.

                          Originally posted by LittleTombo View Post
                          it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that homosexuals should have their bodyparts chopped off either...never the less that is what important religious people used to do here in europe. Just like I can't find anywhere in the bible where it said to treat people of colour as slaves, though alot of european priests used to do just that too. Yes it's sick but it's history. The biblical scriptures does not have all the answers as to why religious people are behaving like they do, alot of it is what political situation their country is in(what they can and can't allow themselves to say and do).

                          There is a difference between the religion and the actions of priests and the Church. Selling salvation was never a part of religion, but was done routinely throughout the Middle Ages. Nor was the incarceration and murder of thousands of Protestants by the Inquisition, but that also was common.

                          You seem to be confusing religion with the practices of religious figures and groups. It's somewhat of a subtle distinction, but the phrase I bolded is crucial. That political situation has nothing to do with religion, so if you're attributing the behaviour of religious figures to the political situation, it's unfair to bring religion itself into the argument.


                          Originally posted by LittleTombo View Post
                          I didn't say you were takin any side I was just trying to elaborate what Zamb previously said about religion and gods intent of man
                          I don't think I'm fighting any kind of selfmade papertiger..the fact that this thread has far less participants that that whole nailpolish thing is just unbelieveable
                          My mistake then. The wording made it seem like you were taking issue with what I said. With the "playing pretend" I meant that only if you were arguing with me, as I'm not really part of the discussion. I apologize for my harshness earlier.
                          An artist is not paid for his labor, but for his vision. - James Whistler

                          Originally posted by BBSCCP
                          I order 1 in every size, please, for every occasion

                          Comment

                          • galia
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2009
                            • 1719

                            LittleTombo: Oh please, slavery was not born from religion but from commerce. It is actually a very sound manner of organising production (for the dominating party) and it still exists today in the form of sweatshops etc, but since it's more out of sight out of mind, we thing very highly of ourselves for having abolished slavery when it has simply been removed to more distant places where most people don't neer or care to look

                            Homosexuality wasn't always fought throughout history, there have been some famously homosexual courts, where it was much better to be one for political advancement. Let's say that this issue has fluctuated. I think the issue of gay marriage is posed on wrong terms. I don't see why gay people shouldn't marry in a city hall, but why want to get a religious marrige? Religious marriage is based in large part on the idea of natural procreation, the couple becoming one and in producing a child are like an image of god creating mankind. Since a gay couple needs a third party to procreate, it wouldn't make any sense. It's stupid to call this unfair, it would be like a man saying it is unfair that he cnnot bear a child

                            Lastly, women's issue are anotherthing entirely. I would only like to say that since Jesus was born of a woman, it is a misinterpretation due to cultural habits that sometimes die hard or are reborn in times of trouble. The gospels are full of beautiful female characters (the ancient testament is another thing entirely)

                            I speak only of Christianity. I don't know Islam and Judeism well enough to comment on their outlook on these sensitive questions

                            Comment

                            • zamb
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2006
                              • 5834

                              Its all good, there is no need to apologize as I think you did a good job of explaining the how being Jamaican might factor into the wider context. i wasn't offended nor thought it an unfair assessment, i just needed to explain than the experiences and upbringing are no less in my worldview than formulating a perspective based on the things I believe to be relevant or irrelevant

                              Regarding Garvey, I didn't know we were related until about eight years ago, at a Family gathering, so as a child I was free from that weight. even now I don't bother to speak of it because it becomes too much of a loaded discussion, especially among Rastafarians who regard him as a prophet.........

                              It was good that I didnt know as a child though, as on my Father's side, I had another significant and Living luminary, albeit for illegal reasons that was a more immediate concern...........

                              Originally posted by SombreResplendence View Post
                              I apologize. It wasn't a good assessment; I wouldn't like the same reasons ascribed to my beliefs either.

                              Did your relationship to Garvey follow you while growing up? If it did I can imagine it must have been difficult to have everybody ask you things about him and then tell them you didn't agree with a lot of it.
                              .
                              “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                              .................................................. .......................


                              Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                              Comment

                              • zamb
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2006
                                • 5834

                                Originally posted by galia View Post
                                LittleTombo: Oh please, slavery was not born from religion but from commerce. It is actually a very sound manner of organising production (for the dominating party) and it still exists today in the form of sweatshops etc, but since it's more out of sight out of mind, we thing very highly of ourselves for having abolished slavery when it has simply been removed to more distant places where most people don't neer or care to look

                                Homosexuality wasn't always fought throughout history, there have been some famously homosexual courts, where it was much better to be one for political advancement. Let's say that this issue has fluctuated. I think the issue of gay marriage is posed on wrong terms. I don't see why gay people shouldn't marry in a city hall, but why want to get a religious marrige? Religious marriage is based in large part on the idea of natural procreation, the couple becoming one and in producing a child are like an image of god creating mankind. Since a gay couple needs a third party to procreate, it wouldn't make any sense. It's stupid to call this unfair, it would be like a man saying it is unfair that he cnnot bear a child

                                Lastly, women's issue are anotherthing entirely. I would only like to say that since Jesus was born of a woman, it is a misinterpretation due to cultural habits that sometimes die hard or are reborn in times of trouble. The gospels are full of beautiful female characters (the ancient testament is another thing entirely)

                                I speak only of Christianity. I don't know Islam and Judeism well enough to comment on their outlook on these sensitive questions
                                Well put Galia,
                                I wanted to make this point but didn't because I thought all hell would break loose if it did.................
                                like those who long for equality, I long for a day when we can discuss our views without it becoming some kind of mudslinging, irrational battle............
                                “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
                                .................................................. .......................


                                Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

                                Comment

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