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LA Times Magazine - Kobe Bryant

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  • Chant
    Banned
    • Jun 2008
    • 2775

    #31
    Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
    Edit : Christian, this is just... clothes. Why should we care ?
    Agree.

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      #32
      Originally posted by Christian View Post
      I strongly disagree. There's no wrong reason to wear anything. Or you have to build a fashion police, and everything that goes with.

      I've the same feeling with this "authenticity" that one often evokes around here. How is it possible to estimate the authenticity something is worn with ? What are the criterias ? This idea does not make any sense for me - especially from pictures.

      Looks like a lot of members here, maybe because of their passion, are considering themselves both as guardians of the temple and arbiters of elegance.

      And huge lol at Mail-moth, who truly lives in the dickensian 19th century : Kobe, baseball player !!!
      I don't see why one should necessitate the other? Hence my last sentence.

      I don't know how authenticity can be determined overtly without making mistakes - "don't judge the book by its cover", etc. - but I suppose one can get pretty close. When you see an Upper East Side socialite sporting a Rick Owens jacket with a huge logoed Gucci bag and oversized Dior sunglasses, chances are that she was told that wearing Owens is what she is supposed to do to be fashionable. I doubt you'd get much further there, no?
      Last edited by Faust; 05-07-2010, 05:34 PM.
      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • Faust
        kitsch killer
        • Sep 2006
        • 37852

        #33
        Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
        Faust, I don't know that much about fashion history, but aren't some evolutions in this field due to the fact that people, from time to time, begin to wear clothes "the wrong way", or because of those reasons you are giving ? Aren't some of the clothes we like here - especially when it comes to men's fashion - a magnified iteration of clumsier, and even quite vulgar, trends, initialy based on the "wrong" use of otherwise respectable garments ?

        I wish I had some precise examples to give here, but this is just an intuition. To me it seems like designers often take a part of their inspiration from those "cultural accidents". I wouldn't present that as a general rule - I don't think that CCP or the Carpe Diem constellation really belong to this category - but what about Rick Owens, or Yohji ? I remember Christian telling somewhere else - or was it here - that in Paris, the "sapeurs" of the african communities were forming a good part of YY's clientele, and I don't know if they're that cautious about the respect due to the designer's vision. But I wouldn't find it surprising to learn someday that Yohji is taking interest in the way they deal with his creations.

        I may be completely wrong though - just trying to figure things.

        Edit : Christian, this is just... sport. Why should I care ?
        I think that the best evolutions in fashion have come about in the same way as they had in art - through antagonism to the established order. Thus Chanel despised the frou-frou over-ornamentation of dress and corsets and came up with the modern sober women's attire, until she herself became the establishment and Ann Demeulemeester wanted to do anything but Chanel, which her teachers crammed down her throat at the Antwerp academy. And Versace and Mugler come and show completely opposite of the stuffy Dior and YSL, and then Rei and Yohji come and show something completely opposite to the vulgarity of Mugler and Versace. And so on, and so forth.

        I suppose adaptations have some merit too - you can point out to the use of plaid by Westwood, McQueen, Kawakubo, etc. The best adaptions in my mind are those that make the inelegant elegant - like Ann and Raf has done with rock'n'roll gear (forgive me for being reductive, but it makes sense for the purposes of discussion).
        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

        Comment

        • Fade to Black
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 5340

          #34
          Originally posted by Mail-Moth View Post
          Aren't some of the clothes we like here - especially when it comes to men's fashion - a magnified iteration of clumsier, and even quite vulgar, trends, initialy based on the "wrong" use of otherwise respectable garments ??
          The favorite thing I've ever read that was said by Yohji, in response to a question on how he would perceive coming across a person who wore his clothes in a way that looked completely wrong, Mr. Y said simply, "Bravo."
          www.matthewhk.net

          let me show you a few thangs

          Comment

          • christianef
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2009
            • 747

            #35
            Originally posted by Fuuma View Post
            On the contrary it is a nice platform from which to discuss a certain attitude regarding who gets to wear these brands with "authenticity", it seems to be an issue with many posters. I find it especially jarring here considering it is an editorial...
            agreed. i wonder how many people on here with rick dunks could actually dunk a basketball. aside from Christian (because of the height and he is generally capable of doing anything.) so, so much for authenticity.

            Comment

            • Chant
              Banned
              • Jun 2008
              • 2775

              #36
              Originally posted by Faust View Post
              When you see an Upper East Side socialite sporting a Rick Owens jacket with a huge logoed Gucci bag and oversized Dior sunglasses, chances are that she was told that wearing Owens is what she is supposed to do to be fashionable. I doubt you'd get much further there, no?
              I never judge an outfit from the intentions - that nobody can know - but from its result : looking good, interesting, original, adapted to the body shape, or not.

              In addition, what some people here call the "universe" or the "vision" of the designer is often only what the PR have decided to put in the forefront. So sticking to the universe means sometimes only being alienated by the publicity (or the runwayshow). In addition, I don't really care about any universe or vision, I'm interested in the clothes themselves and how they make sense, in a stylistical way, or not, but I understand it's a different point of view from many others here, let's say sociological vs aesthetical point of view.

              I agree that Kobe is great in the KVA outfit, and even makes willing to see more of the collection, even though all white is very hard to wear for white people, unless you want to look like an old school just married.

              Comment

              • Chant
                Banned
                • Jun 2008
                • 2775

                #37
                Originally posted by Faust View Post
                I don't see why one should necessitate the other? Hence my last sentence.
                If anyone decides, without any objective sustaining rule or general consent, what is "right" and what is "wrong" then I call this arbitrary or unlawfullness (if the word exists), which opens the door to fashion police.
                Last edited by Chant; 05-08-2010, 04:43 AM.

                Comment

                • Chant
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 2775

                  #38
                  Being dressed like runway lookalikes, or at least being inspired by the runway (what we all mostly do here, including me is quite easy : you have only to check whether the clothes fit your body anatomy. Wearing them in the "wrong" way (thanks FtB for the important Yohji quote), or pairing them with designers outside of the SZ range, but in a sucessfull way is more difficult.

                  Comment

                  • kuugaia
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 1007

                    #39
                    Originally posted by christianef View Post
                    agreed. i wonder how many people on here with rick dunks could actually dunk a basketball. aside from Christian (because of the height and he is generally capable of doing anything.) so, so much for authenticity.
                    I think I get what point you're trying to get across but...Rick 'dunks' are by no means good footwear to play basketball. In fact, they'd be terrible to play in.

                    I think the term 'Rick Dunk' was coined because it looks similar to the 'Nike Dunk' to the mass population. Haha, that's my take on the name anyway.

                    Comment

                    • BSR
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 1562

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Faust View Post
                      I think that the best evolutions in fashion have come about in the same way as they had in art - through antagonism to the established order. Thus Chanel despised the frou-frou over-ornamentation of dress and corsets and came up with the modern sober women's attire, until she herself became the establishment and Ann Demeulemeester wanted to do anything but Chanel, which her teachers crammed down her throat at the Antwerp academy. And Versace and Mugler come and show completely opposite of the stuffy Dior and YSL, and then Rei and Yohji come and show something completely opposite to the vulgarity of Mugler and Versace. And so on, and so forth.

                      I suppose adaptations have some merit too - you can point out to the use of plaid by Westwood, McQueen, Kawakubo, etc. The best adaptions in my mind are those that make the inelegant elegant - like Ann and Raf has done with rock'n'roll gear (forgive me for being reductive, but it makes sense for the purposes of discussion).
                      But don't you think that fashion and art, in their evolutions, bear some relationship to the external world? According to your point, it looks like the 'established order' scope is confined to the fashion world, and that the history of fashion is a sort of hegelian fight of designers against their predecessors.

                      I might be wrong, but imo what mailmoth was saying is that exterior changes can influence fashion designers.

                      @Christian: I'm not sure I could completely separate aesthetics from other aspects of reality. I mean, there is a debate about the conditions under which an aesthetic judgement can occur. Of course aesthetic judgements are triggered by emotions, but these emotions might occur only if one has a specific knowledge of factual features about the object of the aesthetic judgement... So, at the end, some sort of knowledge would be necessarily involved in the recognition of aesthetic properties. Maybe I misunderstood what you mean when you speak of 'making sense stylistically'.
                      pix

                      Originally posted by Fuuma
                      Fuck you and your viewpoint, I hate this depoliticized environment where every opinion should be respected, no matter how moronic. My avatar was chosen just for you, die in a ditch fucker.

                      Comment

                      • Chant
                        Banned
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 2775

                        #41
                        ^ Didn't say that.
                        Let me phrase it more precisely :
                        "In addition, I don't really care about any the designer's "universe" or "vision", I'm interested in the clothes themselves and how they make sense, in a stylistical way, or not, considering the history of fashion, the history of the body and its representations, and the history of art."

                        Comment

                        • Faust
                          kitsch killer
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 37852

                          #42
                          Originally posted by christianef View Post
                          agreed. i wonder how many people on here with rick dunks could actually dunk a basketball. aside from Christian (because of the height and he is generally capable of doing anything.) so, so much for authenticity.
                          bad example. most people wear sneakers not to play sports but to walk around.
                          Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                          StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Christian View Post
                            If anyone decides, without any objective sustaining rule or general consent, what is "right" and what is "wrong" then I call this arbitrary or unlawfullness (if the word exists), which opens the door to fashion police.
                            Vogue constantly decides what is right and what is wrong. I mean, this is the whole POINT of its existence, to tell people what to wear.

                            Anyway, police is there to protect others from harm. In the case we are discussing there is no harm done (except to my eyes). As you know, ethics and law don't always intersect and are often at odds with each other.
                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • Castor
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 612

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Faust View Post
                              I don't see why one should necessitate the other? Hence my last sentence.

                              I don't know how authenticity can be determined overtly without making mistakes - "don't judge the book by its cover", etc. - but I suppose one can get pretty close. When you see an Upper East Side socialite sporting a Rick Owens jacket with a huge logoed Gucci bag and oversized Dior sunglasses, chances are that she was told that wearing Owens is what she is supposed to do to be fashionable. I doubt you'd get much further there, no?
                              Without that customer, I doubt Rick Owens would still be in business. So, begrudge her all you want, but I'm sure Rick appreciates her $$. Maybe she just likes the jacket AND can afford it. At least the "Social X-ray" physique would make an excellent hanger. Mind numbing prices for the rich. The horror.
                              Originally posted by DRRRK
                              The bridge from Dior to CCP being Rick Owens.

                              Comment

                              • Faust
                                kitsch killer
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 37852

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Christian View Post
                                I never judge an outfit from the intentions - that nobody can know - but from its result : looking good, interesting, original, adapted to the body shape, or not.

                                In addition, what some people here call the "universe" or the "vision" of the designer is often only what the PR have decided to put in the forefront. So sticking to the universe means sometimes only being alienated by the publicity (or the runwayshow). In addition, I don't really care about any universe or vision, I'm interested in the clothes themselves and how they make sense, in a stylistical way, or not, but I understand it's a different point of view from many others here, let's say sociological vs aesthetical point of view.

                                I agree that Kobe is great in the KVA outfit, and even makes willing to see more of the collection, even though all white is very hard to wear for white people, unless you want to look like an old school just married.
                                I am interested in both the clothes themselves and the esthetic vision. But now we are talking about what we are personally interested in - that's another discussion, no?
                                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                                Comment

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