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  • Patroklus
    Banned
    • Feb 2011
    • 1675

    Originally posted by 525252 View Post
    PEOPLE BUYING LESS AND SPENDING MORE PER ITEM
    Why? If that's not what the market is demanding then why would you expect to be successful doing this? Why not improve the sustainability and efficiency of the current style of garment production, either by improving the land consumption and reducing the resultant waste of current practices, or switching to new fibers that are more efficient than existing ones? i.e., cellulosic semi-synthetics fibers versus cotton. Producing clothing that consumers don't want isn't productive, and won't ever be successful. You will never make a sweeping change in a market with a re-education program.

    I don't know why the hell people have said things about new silhouettes, next technology.
    Because it's relevant. At least part of Rick Owens' massive success as a designer is due to how easy his garments are to wear, and how forgiving they generally are in terms of fit; you can just pull on some elastic waisted bottom and an easy top, to do everything from your grocery shopping to working and dating, and gigantic balloon shorts with a drop crotch mean you can get fat at the buffet without worrying about what your waist or your hips will do to the fit of your clothing. You can even work out in Rick if you don't mind the dry cleaning bills. So, we have these garments that are luxurious and easy to wear and it's all directly related to their aesthetic, and they way they're constructed.

    Comment

    • 525252
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 246

      I absolutely agree that a re-education program will do close to nil. For those fortunate enough to attend institutions of significant worth, that's awesome, great, lovely. Today in class, I had to sit through discussions about everyone's vague interest in art ("My favourite artist is uh... I can't remember his name.."), their greatest inspirations ("colours...surrealism and dreamlike imagery...?" said several times by various students) which came to the grand finale of a girl putting up her hand to ask if she could go to the toilet. Apparently I attend the best art school in Sydney.
      (Faust, in continuation of the other thread, this is what I mean, Parsons is Parsons and everywhere else is not Parsons.)

      Of course not every single student is so turd like, but too many times I've talked to fashion design students who cite "colours","textures" and "shapes" as their "inspirations", and if I may say so: these things are secondary concerns in design, though important nonetheless. Still, a colour is not an idea.

      So Patroklus, with apologies that it took such an introduction to get to the point: A dropped crotch is not an idea and is certainly not a primary concern which encapsulates the spirit of an era.

      Comment

      • Patroklus
        Banned
        • Feb 2011
        • 1675

        The answer, "colors, textures, and shapes" sounds more like an incomplete thought that an incorrect or frivolous answer.

        anyway, I disagree; the dropped crotch and easy hips are a huge part of the appeal of Dick's bottoms, both for the visual shape and for the ease and comfort in wearing. And that's why he's so wealthy, and why so many other people are scrambling to reinterpret or straight up co-opt Rick's work. With the admission that Rei did it first, Rick made it significant.

        Comment

        • 525252
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 246

          Originally posted by Patroklus View Post
          The answer, "colors, textures, and shapes" sounds more like an incomplete thought that an incorrect or frivolous answer.
          if only you had seen what I have seen


          as for the second half of your post:

          Commercial viability is part of or product of an idea, not an idea in itself.
          A dropped crotch = part of or product of an idea, not an idea.
          A culmination of a zeitgeist = not the zeitgeist itself.

          Comment

          • Burlingame
            Junior Member
            • May 2011
            • 16

            525252, wasn't intending to single you out, by the way. You weren't the first to say that talking about silhouette wasn't really worthwhile. Admittedly, I do keep coming back to the silhouette when I think of what's next because it seems to me (accurately or not, I suppose) like THE defining visual feature of clothing. That's not by accident. The media, including television, magazines, and the internet, is the main way people see new work from designers. Consequently, textures are mostly lost to us. Colors change too rapidly to be of much lasting significance. The shapes of the garments become that much more significant as a result. Yohji is know for oversized. Hedi is known for skinny. I agree with what Faust said about it being just part of an aesthetic. It's a valid point. I do still think it's worth talking about, just recognizing that it's only one part of the whole equation. Is it trend forecasting? Well, yeah. But I'm ok with that, just keeping in mind that it's only one element to discuss.

            Your point about these various elements not being ideas in themselves is a good one. I'd like to hear more about what "an idea in itself" really is, as you see it, and how that translates to the way a garment is made and how it looks, etc. I thought Patroklus made a smart argument about the drop crotch in Rick's stuff and how it's both functional as part of the "Rick lifestyle" (haha, sounds weird just typing that) and as part of the appearance of the clothes.

            For the record, I like this conversation because I'm in a vacuum otherwise and have no smart people to talk to about this stuff. (See that, I'm flattering you all.)

            Comment

            • fncyths
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 775

              Originally posted by Faust View Post
              OT: Fncyths, could you elaborate on your love of Aesop - perhaps in the "men's grooming" thread we have here? I tried to get into it, but to me it just looks like a more expensive alternative to Khiel's or Malin+Goetz. I do like their earthy esthetic.
              I found an old expensive skincare thread but it's back from '08 so I'll just post here. We can start a new one I guess...

              My love for Aesop goes back to stumbling upon a shop in Paris a few years back. Aesthetically the shop was designed extremely well and had a strong '1960s danish educational apothecary' vibe about it (much like the new design of the apple stores)

              My girlfriend at the time practiced Reiki healing and was experimenting with essential oils and whatnot. She grabbed a few bottles and just freaked when she noticed the use of neroli, coriander, geranium, ylang ylang, etc. These are oils that she used for her healing practice and she spoke highly of their daily use. I snagged the Tokyo travel kit with the deodorant and body wash. I'm totally converted!

              I'm a fan of Kiehl's and M+G and use a lot of their products frequently. But there's just something about the 'exotic' ingredients that Aesop uses that keeps me coming back to them (Dr. Hauschka as well). They just collaborated with A.P.C. to form a gentle fabric detergent for hand washing garments. I use this to clean a lot of my selvedge denim and choice RO pieces that I just don't dare dry clean.

              To tie this into the NEXT thread would be to follow the company's social awareness. It's stated better on their site - here
              Originally posted by Shucks
              it's like cocaine, only heavier. and legal.
              Originally posted by interest1
              I don't live in the past. But I do have a vacation home there.

              Comment

              • fncyths
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 775

                Next is not having to light a match in the bathroom anymore...



                http://www.selectism.com/2012/05/07/...masking-drops/
                Originally posted by Shucks
                it's like cocaine, only heavier. and legal.
                Originally posted by interest1
                I don't live in the past. But I do have a vacation home there.

                Comment

                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37852

                  lmao!
                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • 525252
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 246

                    Originally posted by Burlingame View Post
                    Yohji is know for oversized. Hedi is known for skinny............... I do still think it's worth talking about, just recognizing that it's only one part of the whole equation. Is it trend forecasting?Well, yeah. But I'm ok with that, just keeping in mind that it's only one element to discuss.
                    I don't think I really want to continue this cause I feel like I'm repeating myself, but here's the last bit of input I'm going to contribute on this matter:

                    Why do you think you forecast trends in the first place? To get a feel for the ~NEXT ZEITGEIST~ or so you know what to buy next?
                    If Yohji is known for oversized, Rick is definitely depressed goth in wedges, right?

                    Comment

                    • 525252
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 246

                      Okay so I think we've gotten to a point where I'd like to initiate a more specialised discussion to the strategy and logistics of realistic, significant change to business and consumption habits in fashion.
                      I have a suggestion of a primitively formed business model which is experimental and small scale, but needs the collaborative effort of the community here to mold it into a viable project. It is still in an early research phase, and as it is expected to transform through the process, I hope that the direction of this venture can be positively influenced with knowledgeable input and experience of the members here.

                      These are the main concerns which have informed the project:
                      -Sustainable practice and ethical responsibility
                      -Maintaining standards of quality by ensuring paid labour
                      -Generating economic strength with localised business
                      -Influencing change in mass production/consumption habits
                      -Creative synergy between online/offline media as passive commerce
                      These points are roughly discussed in the thread, but again much has been left unexpanded for the sake of being concise, I hope people will understand without my explanation and I'm sure many will.

                      The idea is what I will call for now "studio showrooming", offers a midway between ready-to-wear and bespoke, and is a response of sorts to the problems posed by online shopping and "showrooming",

                      So the cycle would go something like this:
                      1. Product samples are developed by designer
                      2. Highly edited, dedicated media generate interest and awareness of product
                      3. Customer visits studio of designer, where they may try on clothing, request customisations and make orders
                      4. Order specifications are forwarded to local tailor, working in collaboration with designer, produces garment
                      5. Customer receives product

                      The way I envision it, after sufficient planning/consultancies initiating this kind of project would require a small budget and a small as possible number of people involved as it is still experimental. The outcome would hopefully be a streamlined procedure which responds to the concerns listed above.

                      My background is in image making (I would place myself in the media production part of the process), not fashion design or production, so please correct or criticise where needed and also suggest logistics if it crosses your area of expertise


                      suggested reading:

                      "Will Showrooming Kill Buisnesses?"
                      Discuss print and online magazines, newspapers, blogs, and other fashion media


                      "Made in Italy: Time for Accountability"


                      "Who Makes What for Whom"
                      Last edited by 525252; 08-08-2012, 06:08 AM. Reason: added suggested reading

                      Comment

                      • Pumpfish
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 513

                        This elabotates a thought I posted earlier in this thread.

                        You don't need step 4. I don't think you could establish such a network anyway. Let the designer use his normal manfacturing process.

                        Is this an SZ iteration of the trunk show?
                        spinning glue back into horses. . .

                        Comment

                        • 525252
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 246

                          Originally posted by Pumpfish View Post
                          You don't need step 4. I don't think you could establish such a network anyway. Let the designer use his normal manfacturing process.
                          I just added some suggested reading which addresses the problem with the "normal manufacturing process". There is a limit to how manufacturers even in Italy can continue with work moving offshore to China. I recently experienced the effect of this when a local manufacturer collapsed and caused a chain of unemployment all the way down to a label who had tried their best to localise all their processes but are now being forced to use Chinese manufacturers.

                          Can I ask why such a network with a tailor would not be possible?
                          Large scale manufacture compromises craft, which is a dying art and business, personally it seems to be the best direction to funnel work.
                          Special orders are as you said a cottage industry, which is expensive and no fully streamlined structure is in place apart from the formation of agency-type roles.

                          This project would be separate to whatever business the designer has on their own if they even do, just a reminder that designers don't all grow up to work at big fashion houses or make eponymous lines.

                          The owner of Zara is now the 3rd richest man in the world, coming from a country with over 20% unemployment. If this isn't a telling sign that drastic change is necessary, then i guess we can continue talking designer aesthetics
                          Last edited by 525252; 08-08-2012, 06:47 AM. Reason: grammar

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            That ain't gonna happen on the mass scale. You are asking for too much mental effort and care from an average consumer. And yet you are saying that an educational effort is futile. Which I really can't fathom how you can say this, given how many ideas have proliferated via education systems.
                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • Pumpfish
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 513

                              Originally posted by 525252 View Post
                              Can I ask why such a network with a tailor would not be possible?

                              Tailors, as established at present, work to their own patterns. (With parts of the process sub-contracted.)

                              I could just imagine bringing a pattern for J-cut trousers, or a back raglan to a tailor. Only the most adventurous would attempt it.


                              Perhaps over time such a network could be developed - but skilled tailors are so rare, and entrenched, that it would take a revolution in the trade.
                              spinning glue back into horses. . .

                              Comment

                              • 525252
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 246

                                Originally posted by Faust View Post
                                That ain't gonna happen on the mass scale. You are asking for too much mental effort and care from an average consumer. And yet you are saying that an educational effort is futile. Which I really can't fathom how you can say this, given how many ideas have proliferated via education systems.
                                Many Ideas HAVE proliferated via education systems, but it is changing. The universities in Sydney have buckled to their insecurities (and/or greed) and have decided to cut funding in mainly humanities and arts sections because conventionally those degrees don't offer job security and conventionally people choose their degrees by job security.
                                This is widespread and understandable given that insecurity is the contemporary and popular sentiment.
                                I get the feeling that you have only seen the exceptions, and if they make it through this era without being corrupted, great. I think you said before that there are students who have purely paid their way in with no talent. I wonder if it'll get to a point over the next few years where those are the ones getting their diplomas while the motivated students drop out because they got frustrated with the lowering standard of education catering to the plebs.
                                "Plebs" is my blanket term for privileged lost high school graduates; here, they are the majority and they are not fun to be around.

                                I'll be writing more later today, when I return from my preschool of a university.

                                Comment

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